Other feature...IMO.

Agree with The Martian too; it only would get a separate profile if it were a full length feature, not just for a short film

Quoting T!M:

Quote:

It may be an interesting discussion, though, what the cut-off point is: at what point does something stop being a "short film" and becomes a "bonus feature film" instead? At a running time of how many minutes? And where exactly do the rules specify that particular cut-off point, ensuring that we all make the exact same distinction? Just a few simple questions... 

That's exactly the issue that prompted my question, as the Rules go on about how to treat a "bonus feature film" and those for Box Sets about “films” and “movies”, but don't make any suggestion as to how we define these in relation to what are effectively bonus, short films.

I normally just add them as an Other Feature myself.  In this particular case the main film is 64 minutes long and the short film 11 minutes.  The current Contribution mentions the short film as an Other Feature but has then treated it as a bonus feature film and then the DVD as a Box Set, but as the main film and short film are on the same disc, then further treated it like a TV series and used Dividers for crew and cast to divide up the two films as if they were two TV episodes; although he/she then hasn't updated the Running Time or Production Year to reflect the fact that it's being treated as a Box Set.  (The short film also has a different Rating.)  I hope that makes sense?  With the exception of the time and production company, provided the short film can be considered as a bonus feature film, the Contribution of it looks correct. 

I’m reluctant to remove the information that’s been contributed as I can’t see a Rule specific reason to do so, but it’s not how I’ve ever seen a short film contributed before and that means this issue is being treated in an inconsistent way within the database.  Lots of DVDs have short films included on them, so it must be an issue that arises quite often.

I really quite like how the short film has been treated in the example I’m dealing with at the moment, but I’d not ideally wish to change some of the other details (such as the running time) in line with the Rules as they presently describe (which is what I ought to do if I don’t remove all the crew and cast data for it).  I suspect it would distort a lot of the data in a lot of profiles if all short films were treated in this way simply as bonus feature films, which would be confusing.

Yes, it would be good to define “short film” and “bonus feature film” and then have clarity on if we follow all the Box Set Rules for them (in terms of altering some of the other data like running time for example) if we decide short films are to be treated as a bonus feature films.

Short films get very little recognition at present in the database, but (in my opinion) are actually quite important in relation to some of the other things we record.

If the short is one of the extras (as the first post indicates)... and has cast and crew using episode dividers on the main profile is certainly does break the rules...

Rules Quote:

Quote:
Do not list actors and crew who appear only in special features, or whose scenes were deleted from the main feature, even if they appear in special features.

See the portion I put in bold. That right there tells me that there should be no cast or crew for the short in the profile.

It would still be wrong... per Rules Bonus Films (which I don't believe shorts qualify for personally) get their own profile. Not profiled in one profile using dividers.

Quote:
Create the profile for the main feature in line with the standard Contribution Rules with the title of the Bonus Feature Film added to the Other Features field. Create a child profile for the "Bonus Feature Film" using the individual UPC if available or use Disc ID (read on a DVD-ROM) if not available. When creating a child profile, do not remove the "Bonus Feature Film" Disc ID from the main profile. When profiling the "Bonus Feature Film", only profile the data associated with that film. Any features associated with the Main Feature belong to the Main Feature profile. Add the additional profile to the Main Profile as a child profile via the Box Set button. Cover Images: Use the cover image from the Main Feature profile's packaging. Exception: If the "Bonus Feature Film" is individually packaged, use the cover images from that packaging.

See the sentence I put in bold. It would get it's own child profile. Not listing the cast and crew on main profile using episode dividers... so it is still wrong per Rules.

To expand a bit on Pete's comment
The Rules also state:

"•Previous movie versions, example "Ben-Hur: Four-Disc Collector's Edition" which includes the 1925 version.
•Companion movie bonuses, example "Season of the Witch" which includes "There's Always Vanilla" from the same director.

Companion movies refers to fgeature length films NOT to short films. If it were to include SAhiort films then any film which contained say a Cartoon Short, such as many Disney titles or Pixar would also have a child attached and they do not, for a reason. This would have been easily answered had you looked into ANY of the Pixar titles, for example, without any confusion. This problem has been around for a long time and should be addressed, we can only wait and see. This, like the whole issues regarding Crew data, Open Credits or not, how to control the data and so forth< i have gone on about ad nauseum numerous times, I have learned to be patient, it took Ken 5 years to give us any form of expanded Crew, which quite frankly I was initially pleased with...not realizing that opeoople would immediately begin trying to punch holes in the concept and trying to find a variety of assorted ways to insert their favorite piece of Crew data regardless of what the Rules defined...one excellent case in point is the whole crazy discuussion relative to whether Voices might be Actors even if they are outside of the defined aerea for Cast data, some users have even claimed that they can divine what is or is not an actor despite what the Rules said.and I use the past tense intentionally. Because the same mystically empowered users convinced Ken of the magical powers of divinatiion and he modified the original Rule to provide for the use of magic 8 balls, Ouija boards or whatever. To me it is completely bogus and weakened the Rules but....

I don't know if this helps but...

The Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences defines a Short Film as an original motion picture that has a running time of 40 minutes or less, including all credits.  A feature film would be anything longer.

The American Film Institute follows the internationally used archival rule that a feature film is at least four reels or 4,000 feet in length or 40 minutes long.

Wikipedia claims that the BFI uses the same standard, but I couldn't find it on their wibsite.  They also claim that the Centre National de la Cinématographie in France defines it as a 35 mm film longer than 1,600 metres, which is exactly 58 minutes and 29 seconds for sound films, and the Screen Actors Guild gives a minimum running time of at least 80 minutes. 

Quoting SpikyCactus:

Quote:
I agree with Pete’s logic entirely, in that if it’s an Other Feature than that’s the only mention it gets.  Again I agree that if it’s considered a “bonus feature film” then it should get its own child profile (which in this case would share the same Disc ID as the main film).  The latter seems a really neat way to deal with shorts too.  The trouble is, we have no accepted definition of what a “bonus feature film” is and shorts aren’t even given as any example of an Other Feature, so this distinction (bonus feature film vs Other Feature) is totally arbitrary, which means different people will do different things.

However, it gets even more complicated.  The Rules also say (my bolding):

Spiky;

As with most questions that come to the forum, if the user would simply look around at similar titles you would find the answer. As I mentiooned nearly  ALL Pixar films have an accompanying animated short film and you will not find a single Profile that has such a child, not one. I believe that you are creating an interpretation that is not based on the Rules in light of the examples given, but out of personal desire to do so, you can of course do this locally  if you choose. I can but explain how it has always been done, I could even give you the background on the Rule in specific detail. I cannot give you anything based on a faulty user interpretation that has no backing anywhere in the database. Sorry, but all you have to do is look, the same is generally true for Extra TV episodes which might be included in a specific season