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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Group End dividers in Crew |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 868 |
| | Posted: | | | | Hello, I recently, after seeing some other contributions doing this as well, started using Group Dividers for songs written for the movie. After adding them i used a Group End divider because if you don't all subsequent crew, from other roles as well, are included with this header. After submitting i received several No votes explaining a Group End Divider was, according to the rules, not allowed. I missed this part and they are correct Quoting Contribution Rules: Quote:
Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section. My problem however is that, while they, as i just said, are correct this gives us incorrect Group Headers for crew who don't even have a divider! In a, very friendly, PM discussion a member told me that he'd hoped Ken would eventually solve this and that this meant we'd have to remove the dividers later on. I obviously hope that Ken creates a solution as well, however he never said such a thing (to my knowledge anyway), and while we'd eventually would need to remove the group end i noticed you don't even see them unless you go into the editing screen, so personally i don't see the problem in adding them. Here's how it shows in profiler: Crew list as shown in profiler, with or without Group End Divider doesn't matter List of movies Crew member appeared in, with Group End List of movies Crew member appeared in, without Group End I hope people can chip in with their opinions, Thanks, Paul |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | First: we've just discussed using dividers for song titles, right here. So I would have to vote against this particular contribution anyway... Moving on to the end divider thing: that's a major known bug that has been reported several times now, which needs to be fixed by Invelos a.s.a.p. There is indeed a workaround available in adding an end divider in such cases, but the fact of the matter is that doing so is explicitly not allowed per the rules. As of yet, I'm still hoping Ken will fix this soon, and if that's the case, I'd rather wait for that rather than applying the workaround to thousands of profiles which then may have to be manually removed again... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 868 |
| | Posted: | | | | I recall that discussion yes, at first i was also against this use of the divider, however i tried it and it looks good (in my opinion anyway), especially with longer credits which end up not fitting in a custom role. Which happened and let me to try using a divider here. To your second point, as i already said in the post, when just looking at the profile you would never know if there is or isn't a group end divider so the absolute necessity to remove them isn't, again in my opinion, there. And since there is no definite word from Ken whether or not a fix is coming i'd rather have a correct (ish  ) crew now than waiting for a fix which may or may not show up anytime soon, Paul |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | At first I always thought by 'the end of a crew section' the end of the crew as a whole (so only at the end of the art crew). I have to agree with paulb_99. The group end divider isn't show in the credits and there hasn't been a statement regarding the correction of this bug. It could also be that Ken decides to rewrite the rule so it will be 100% clear not to use the group end divider completely at the end of the crew only.
Of course I'm in favour for the use of dividers for song titles. But that's not what this topic is about. | | | | Cor |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 868 |
| | Posted: | | | | Another thing i just realized. If the first credit would have been for the song followed by the Composer we'd use a group end to prevent incorrect headers to appear, right?
So then it makes even less sense to not use them if we want to make sure the header only shows for the correct people.
Paul |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
At first I always thought by 'the end of a crew section' the end of the crew as a whole (so only at the end of the art crew). I have to agree with paulb_99. The group end divider isn't show in the credits and there hasn't been a statement regarding the correction of this bug. It could also be that Ken decides to rewrite the rule so it will be 100% clear not to use the group end divider completely at the end of the crew only.
Of course I'm in favour for the use of dividers for song titles. But that's not what this topic is about. The end pf the crew section as a whole is actually after "Other", not after "Art". And I would propose to put in end dividers, since even if they aren't needed anymore at some time in the future (next release in two years time?), they will not be in the way. | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
[...] I would propose to put in end dividers, since even if they aren't needed anymore at some time in the future (next release in two years time?), they will not be in the way. I could live with that. It definitely makes no sense to cling to the rules, as they were obviously written for a feature that doesn't work as was expected when the rules were written. If it messes up the feature to apply the rules, I'd vote for ignoring the rules. Never thought that I would ever write something like that, but in this case it really is the only way that seems to make some sense. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Silence_of_Lambs: Quote:
If it messes up the feature to apply the rules, I'd vote for ignoring the rules.
Interesting position... Why here and not in all other cases where it messes up the feature ??? | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | The only way to "ignore" the rules is if Ken or Gerri tells us to until they either fix the program or rules page. Whether it makes since or not. I for one will always do as the rules states with both contributions and voting.
So what we NEED is to get guidance from Ken and/or Gerri on this so we know what to do. It could be an easy fix on their side that wouldn't mean any changing on our side. Just like the wrong rating uploading when we first got the Unrated rating. | | | | Pete |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Why here and not in all other cases where it messes up the feature ??? There you go - thanks for showing where this leads us. If the rules explicitly say "Do not XYZ", and we decide to do XYZ after all, then I guess you're right, surfeur: apparently the rules don't matter at all and you get to do whatever you think is best. Again, I understand - and support! - the desire to get this bug fixed, but I'm with Pete on this one: as long as the rules explicitly tell us "Do not add a group end divider at the end of a crew section" (one of the simplest rules we've got, actually: no if's, no but's, just don't do that, period), then I won't. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
If it messes up the feature to apply the rules, I'd vote for ignoring the rules.
Interesting position... Why here and not in all other cases where it messes up the feature ??? I think it's needed to be a bit more precise: Ignoring the rules implies that the changes have to be kept local only, until either Invelos changes the rules, or the bug gets fixed. For the maindatabase of course only rule-conform contributions are allowed. And this means if the group-divider leads to unwanted results, leave the group-divider out, it's only optional anyway. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Why here and not in all other cases where it messes up the feature ???
There you go - thanks for showing where this leads us. If the rules explicitly say "Do not XYZ", and we decide to do XYZ after all, then I guess you're right, surfeur: apparently the rules don't matter at all and you get to do whatever you think is best.
Again, I understand - and support! - the desire to get this bug fixed, but I'm with Pete on this one: as long as the rules explicitly tell us "Do not add a group end divider at the end of a crew section" (one of the simplest rules we've got, actually: no if's, no but's, just don't do that, period), then I won't. There we agree. The problem is to be consistent. But among users there are two different purposes : those who bought dvdprofiler to play with letters and numbers and enter them per the rules, and the game is to apply them strictly in all cases. And the users that bought dvdprofiler because they are interested in movies and want to have in their database (and give other users) correct data for those movies. For them, each time (in fact less than 1% of cases) rules ask us to enter wrong or problematic data, they would prefer not to follow them. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Silence_of_Lambs: Quote:
it's only optional anyway. I don't understand that? |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Silence_of_Lambs: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting Silence_of_Lambs:
Quote:
If it messes up the feature to apply the rules, I'd vote for ignoring the rules.
Interesting position... Why here and not in all other cases where it messes up the feature ???
I think it's needed to be a bit more precise:
Ignoring the rules implies that the changes have to be kept local only, until either Invelos changes the rules, or the bug gets fixed.
For the maindatabase of course only rule-conform contributions are allowed. And this means if the group-divider leads to unwanted results, leave the group-divider out, it's only optional anyway. The problem is that group dividers aren't only used in the music section of the crew but in for example the sound section as well. So in your reasoning we could only use dividers in the art section of the crew. | | | | Cor |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
So in your reasoning we could only use dividers in the art section of the crew. Ah, you're thinking the problem doesn't appear there since the art section is at the end? Unfortunately, the same bug still rears it's ugly head then, showing any local-only "Other" crew as part of that divider in the art section. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | I know it's against the rules, but I've submitted a number of profiles including the end group divider simply because of this problem (including song titles, T!m  ). Luckily I've had no "no" votes, although some people did question their inclusion so I linked to the thread about the bug in my notes. Also, so far, not a single one has been rejected by the screeners - a sign to me at least that this is acceptable until the problem is fixed anyway. As an aside, does anyone know why we aren't supposed to add them when they're at the end of a section? Edit: Paul, I would edit your notes to make specific mention of the bug, I'd include the link but I can't find the original thread.  | | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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