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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Asian Names Question |
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| Registered: March 18, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm kind of confused on how to enter some Asian names for a profile.
On the cast list, some Asian names have an English name at the end for some reason. So for instance, there is one whose name is Tang Chung Him Joseph. Another one is Chen Hung Jason. Wong Wa Wo Jimmy. Obviously, none of these are last names so how do I go about entering them? For the first example, would it be entered as Tang/Chung/Him credited as Tang Chung Him Joseph? Wong/Wa/Wo credited as Wong Wa Wo Jimmy? Or could it be Joseph Tang/Chung/Him. Jimmy Wong/Wa/Wo.
I have no clue how to even go at this, and most if not all are unknown actors and not in the database. Perhaps someone has encountered this before, if so, how was it entered (and accepted)?
Edited to say that right or wrong, Asian names are parsed a certain way which may not be correct but I know that was debated in another thread and I'd rather keep this on topic about what to do with those English names. | | | | Last edited: by The Movieman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I see absolutely no challenge her based on the CREDIT which is what we use, we have NOT yet been given any special dispensation from ken to handle Asian names in any other manner. I have personal opinion on the matter but that at this moment is not relevant.
Tang/ Chung Him/ Joseph is what the Rules specify, that would be exactly AS CREDITED, we could argue about various possibilities resulting in the SAME appearance Tang/ Chung/ Him Joseph for example and i would probably not argue this concept since the appearance would be the SAME.But until Ken or Gerri clears any other procedure, I am afraid we are stuck with AS CREDITED, especially since as you note we are dealing relatively low level in terms of documentability. and i hate guessing games and assumptions,. So, my bottom line for now based on the rules is something that results in the Appearance of the data...unless Ken or Gerri wish to allow us to use the CA system...that is their call and thus far I don't believe they have made such a call. Seems to me like a relative no-brainer, except for the variants which could be applied and STILL result in the correct data appearance (As Credited).
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMovieman: Quote:
I have no clue how to even go at this As frequent debates about Asian names in general have shown, there clearly is no concensus on how to deal with any of this. These "mixed" names (possibly appended Western nicknames, but who's to say?) are no exception. Basically, everyone does as he sees fit. So... good luck. Quoting Woola: Quote:
Tang/ Chung Him/ Joseph is what the Rules specify There you go again: that's blatantly untrue. The rules don't specify that at all - they don't address parsing. Don't get me wrong: I'd like the rules to address parsing as much as you do. But they don't, so please stop claiming otherwise. And remember: in Asian culture there's no such thing as a "middle name" - so that's a start. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | I know that Tang, Chen, and Wong are typical Asian last names. Asian actors are often adapting a Western name as middle name (or nickname) when working internationally. Asian first names are often double barreled. For all those reasons and in order to comply to the credited as paradigm, I would enter them as Chung Him/Joseph/Tang [Tang Chung Him Joseph], Hung/Jason/Chen [Chen Hung Jason], and Wa Wo/Jimmy/Wong [Wong Wa Wo Jimmy] using all four fields (first name/middle name/last name [credited as]).
I know that the rules do neither suggest nor forbid this. But following the field names and supporting last name sorting and still satisfying "credited as", this is by far the best method IMO. | | | | Last edited: by RHo |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting TheMovieman:
Quote:
I have no clue how to even go at this
As frequent debates about Asian names in general have shown, there clearly is no concensus on how to deal with any of this. These "mixed" names (possibly appended Western nicknames, but who's to say?) are no exception. Basically, everyone does as he sees fit. So... good luck.
Quoting Woola:
Quote:
Tang/ Chung Him/ Joseph is what the Rules specify
There you go again: that's blatantly untrue. The rules don't specify that at all - they don't address parsing. Don't get me wrong: I'd like the rules to address parsing as much as you do. But they don't, so please stop claiming otherwise. And remember: there's no such thing as a "middle name" in Asian countries. No, Tim, there YOU go again. misstating the Rules. The Rules state explicitly to list the data exactly as it appears On screen "For any film with standard credits, take the actor information from the end credits only, with names and roles listed exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. Exception: If the credit information is entirely capitalized, use standard capitalization rules instead. I assume that you do understand that. As long as the data appears EXACTLY as it does On screen we are good. I am all for ken allowing for use of the CA system for these issues, but he has not and like it or not the Rules do Cover it. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,436 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't know why you are being rude at Tim!, since you stated yourself in your first post that different parsing possibilities exist  | | | Achim [諾亞信； Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
Registered: May 29, 2000 (at InterVocative) |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
For all those reasons and in order to comply to the credited as paradigm, I would enter them as Chung Him/Joseph/Tang [Tang Chung Him Joseph], Hung/Jason/Chen [Chen Hung Jason], and Wa Wo/Jimmy/Wong [Wong Wa Wo Jimmy] using all four fields (first name/middle name/last name [credited as]).
Agree with that, perhaps with middle name between "" : Chung Him/"Joseph"/Tang | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | As said a hundred times before, in asian culture middle names do not exist  And as Ken so far didn't make a final decision on this, feel free to enter it as you wish, no need to fight about this, till Ken makes a final decision. cheers Donnie | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | @ Skip:
AFAIK the rules only tell us to enter them as credited, i.e. with the same appearance, and they don't address parsing at all (other than for nicknames, stage names and articles, neither of which applies here). Isn't that what T!M said as well? If I'm wrong, please show me. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
@ Skip:
AFAIK the rules only tell us to enter them as credited, i.e. with the same appearance, and they don't address parsing at all (other than for nicknames, stage names and articles, neither of which applies here). Isn't that what T!M said as well? That is, indeed, exactly what I said. Quote:
If I'm wrong, please show me. I'm guessing we're in for a long wait. It's no wonder we never get anywhere with these debates - by the time we're through rehashing the same basics for the umpteenth time, nobody's got any energy left to actually debate the actual subject matter... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
I know that the rules do neither suggest nor forbid this. But following the field names and supporting last name sorting and still satisfying "credited as", this is by far the best method IMO. Actually, the rules do forbid this. The 'credited as' field can't be used that way unless you can prove that your chosen parsing is the common form of the name. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 18, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | I've come to the conclusion not to submit the cast at all. Crew isn't as complicated so that I will. I'll keep the cast (what I've done so far) local. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting RHo:
Quote:
I know that the rules do neither suggest nor forbid this. But following the field names and supporting last name sorting and still satisfying "credited as", this is by far the best method IMO.
Actually, the rules do forbid this. The 'credited as' field can't be used that way unless you can prove that your chosen parsing is the common form of the name. I take the credit, parse it into pieces, and put the pieces into the appropriate fields. Therefore I enter the name directly as credited according to the rules quoted below. Since the pieces are put back together by profiler in a different order, I have to use the credited-as-field to correct this. Quoting the rules: Quote:
To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool. This quoted part of the rules is not about the order of the name fields but about the content. We have to use the CLT, when we want to put different content into fields than as in the credits. | | | | Last edited: by RHo |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
I take the credit, parse it into pieces, and put the pieces into the appropriate fields. Therefore I enter the name directly as credited according to the rules quoted below. Since the pieces are put back together by profiler in a different order, I have to use the credited-as-field to correct this. How, exactly, did you come to the conclusion that those were the appropriate fields? I have yet to see any documentation claiming that the 'western' name is adopted as a middle name. In fact, everything I have read claims otherwise. From what I can tell, at least for Chinese names, the norm is one of 3 variations: Western name, surname, and Chinese given name, in that order ("Fred Yao Ming")Western name, Chinese given name, and surname ("Fred Ming Yao")Surname, Chinese given name, followed by Western name ("Yao Ming Fred")Do you have something that states other asian cultures do it differently? Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting the rules:
Quote:
To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.
This quoted part of the rules is not about the order of the name fields but about the content. We have to use the CLT, when we want to put different content into fields than as in the credits. I guess you could come to that conclusion when you take the rule out of context. The part of the rule below, the part you left out of your quote, tells us exactly when to use the 'credited as' field. "Use the "Credited As" field where the person's name differs from the credited name." Seems pretty clear to me...I see no provision for using it because you chose to parse the name in an order that changes how it is displayed. Believe me, I wish it did as it would solve all the asian name problems...though it would create a few as well.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
How, exactly, did you come to the conclusion that those were the appropriate fields? I have yet to see any documentation claiming that the 'western' name is adopted as a middle name. You may be right here. I do not know that much about how Asian people adapt their names in Hollywood. But before I will contribute more to this discussion, I want you to ask how you (specially addressed to TheMadMartian) would enter those example credits given in the first post? |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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