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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Rule preference with Original Title? |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | I found many long threads about original titles for contributions, but couldn't find this specific matter discussed. I am about to contribute a Finnish DVD-release of the French movie "L'Amant", which has an alternative title "The Lover". The DVD release-title is "Rakastaja". The rules say the following about contributing titles (bolding by me): ------------------------------ "The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title. Use the title from the film's credits. In cases where the title is the original title, leave the Original Title field blank." "Foreign Films: The Original Title field will contain the original title for the main feature in the country of origin." ------------------------------ In this particular case these two rules infact contradict each other, since we surely must understand the rules in the way that "Foreign Films" is any non-US film. In the film there is only the title "The lover" (and that's not typo, the L isn't capitalised), within the film itself, in the opening credits of the main feature. However, the original French title seems to be "L'Amant" according to every source I found, e.g. ... http://www.cinefil.com/film/l-amant-2http://www.allocine.fr/film/fichefilm_gen_cfilm=1665.htmlhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lover_(film)So according to the earlier section of the rule quoted above, I should enter "The lover" into the original title field, but according to the later section I should enter "L'Amant". Has there been any ruling over the preference to be chosen, even if it is not in the rules? | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) | | | | Last edited: by Draxen |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | It would indeed seem the rule authors were not entirely aware of the complexities of certain European DVD releases, where you can indeed find DVD releases with a title in language A, an on-screen title in language B (depending on the print that was used for the DVD transfer) and an original title in the film's CoO in language C.
I don't know about rulings on this issue, but I can assure you that in the case you described I would definitely enter "L'Amant" as the Original Title, the reason being that I can't think of any use for having an entry "The Lover". Moreover, your rule quote explicitly states the purpose of the Original Title field is to allow "for the tracking of the original feature title". In this case, the original feature title was certainly not The Lover. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 17,330 |
| | Posted: | | | | This don't only occur with foreign movies. I have seen this happen within R1 US for our own titles. Where a movie can have 3 or even more alternate titles. So if the case uses one alternative title and the opening credits use another alternative title... then the actual original title can't be used (if you are able to find it out that is).
That first rule where to take original title from was changed not too long ago. And I think when it was changed it just either wasn't considered how it effects the Foreign Films titles... or Ken/Gerri just haven't decided how to handle it yet. I really not sure. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
It would indeed seem the rule authors were not entirely aware of the complexities of certain European DVD releases, where you can indeed find DVD releases with a title in language A, an on-screen title in language B (depending on the print that was used for the DVD transfer) and an original title in the film's CoO in language C.
I don't know about rulings on this issue, but I can assure you that in the case you described I would definitely enter "L'Amant" as the Original Title, the reason being that I can't think of any use for having an entry "The Lover". Moreover, your rule quote explicitly states the purpose of the Original Title field is to allow "for the tracking of the original feature title". In this case, the original feature title was certainly not The Lover. That is my preference, too, and I am inclined to contribute this with "L'Amant". Actually, since the rules that I quoted are in that order, one can think the later part of something that can be used to override the earlier rule in the specific case of "Foreign Films". However, I think this is one of those cases, where it can be argued that the movie has two "original" titles i.e. they just made one printversion of the film for homemarket (French credits) and another for foreign market (English credits). But since the country of origin is France, French title must be "more original" I guess  | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Agreed. I also have some vague recollection of a feature request to introduce an extra "Original Title" field in DVDP or something like that. |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
This don't only occur with foreign movies. I have seen this happen within R1 US for our own titles. Where a movie can have 3 or even more alternate titles. So if the case uses one alternative title and the opening credits use another alternative title... then the actual original title can't be used (if you are able to find it out that is).
That first rule where to take original title from was changed not too long ago. And I think when it was changed it just either wasn't considered how it effects the Foreign Films titles... or Ken/Gerri just haven't decided how to handle it yet. I really not sure. Because the rules explicitly state the purpose of this field is to allow "for the tracking of the original feature title", I would argue the "actual original title", as you call it, is what is supposed to go into the field. Where you can find it is a secondary issue, if indeed purpose comes before means, that is. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
This don't only occur with foreign movies. I have seen this happen within R1 US for our own titles. Where a movie can have 3 or even more alternate titles. So if the case uses one alternative title and the opening credits use another alternative title... then the actual original title can't be used (if you are able to find it out that is). Those are annoying cases, and another Original Title / Alternative Title -field would be welcomed. In this movie the title "The lover" doesn't seem to be in any way at all added later on, that also made me unsure of what to contribute. The title is superimposed on the film just as any other parts of the opening credits and that leads me to think that the film-print originally had also this english-credited version - and that the title is not just added for subsequent homevideo/-dvd releases. | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) | | | | Last edited: by Draxen |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | Probably the Finnish release contains a DVD transfer of a print of the film version that was used for the English-speaking market then. | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
Probably the Finnish release contains a DVD transfer of a print of the film version that was used for the English-speaking market then. Yup. | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) |
| | Registered: April 2, 2007 |  Posts: 156 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Draxen: Quote:
Quoting dee1959jay:
Quote:
Probably the Finnish release contains a DVD transfer of a print of the film version that was used for the English-speaking market then.
Yup. The Norwegian version of this title, which probably is the same as the Finnish, except from the cover, is marked, on the cover: "ORIGINALTITTEL: THE LOVER / L'AMANT" ie. BOTH titles as original title... The "Norwegian" title, however, is the English version, only. edit: EAN/UPC: 7090001711442 | | | | Karsten | | | | Last edited: by karstenp |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 413 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Draxen: Quote:
In this particular case these two rules infact contradict each other, since we surely must understand the rules in the way that "Foreign Films" is any non-US film. In the film there is only the title "The lover" (and that's not typo, the L isn't capitalised), within the film itself, in the opening credits of the main feature. However, the original French title seems to be "L'Amant" according to every source I found, e.g. ...
Not that this has any affect on the problem in hand but why must we understand something like that (bolded text)? To me (and you Draxen) all non-Finnish movies are Foreign Films. If you have a Finnish locality release of any movie whose CoO is not Finland then it is a foreign film. It does not matter whether it is from USA or UK or France etc. I find it very peculiar that foreign = non-US, no matter where you are from. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,330 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
Quoting Addicted2DVD:
Quote:
This don't only occur with foreign movies. I have seen this happen within R1 US for our own titles. Where a movie can have 3 or even more alternate titles. So if the case uses one alternative title and the opening credits use another alternative title... then the actual original title can't be used (if you are able to find it out that is).
That first rule where to take original title from was changed not too long ago. And I think when it was changed it just either wasn't considered how it effects the Foreign Films titles... or Ken/Gerri just haven't decided how to handle it yet. I really not sure.
Because the rules explicitly state the purpose of this field is to allow "for the tracking of the original feature title", I would argue the "actual original title", as you call it, is what is supposed to go into the field. Where you can find it is a secondary issue, if indeed purpose comes before means, that is. Basically whenever the rules tells us what source we are to use. That is the source we need to use. That is my opinion at least. | | | | Pete | | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 681 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jykke: Quote:
Quoting Draxen:
Quote:
In this particular case these two rules infact contradict each other, since we surely must understand the rules in the way that "Foreign Films" is any non-US film. In the film there is only the title "The lover" (and that's not typo, the L isn't capitalised), within the film itself, in the opening credits of the main feature. However, the original French title seems to be "L'Amant" according to every source I found, e.g. ...
Not that this has any affect on the problem in hand but why must we understand something like that (bolded text)?
To me (and you Draxen) all non-Finnish movies are Foreign Films. If you have a Finnish locality release of any movie whose CoO is not Finland then it is a foreign film. It does not matter whether it is from USA or UK or France etc. I find it very peculiar that foreign = non-US, no matter where you are from. Of course you are correct, I was just trying to guess there what the people, who wrote that rule, might have been after with that special attention for Foreign Films. Because, in the end, with completely global approach to the Original Title-rules, we only need the ruling for Foreign Films: " The Original Title field will contain the original title for the main feature in the country of origin". That's all we really need - of course most of the times it is in the opening credits, but all we really need is the above sentence (when we verify our sources for this info). The other part ("The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title. Use the title from the film's credits.") is therefore kind of redundant. | | | Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez) |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | @Pete:
IMHO the analogy in the original version of your post is flawed. This is not about the field name. As the OP already indicated, it is about an apparent contradiction within the rules themselves, which on the one hand state what should go into the field ("the original feature title") and on the other hand mention a source for that information ("the film's credits") which does not necessarily provide the necessary data. In this case, it clearly doesn't. | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | @ Mika:
I agree with your text suggestion, provided contributors will document where they got the Original Title from. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 17,330 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
@Pete:
IMHO the analogy in the original version of your post is flawed. This is not about the field name. As the OP already indicated, it is about an apparent contradiction within the rules themselves, which on the one hand state what should go into the field ("the original feature title") and on the other hand mention a source for that information ("the film's credits") which does not necessarily provide the necessary data. In this case, it clearly doesn't. I know what I originally was posting was off... that is why I changed it. because I couldn't get what I was thinking out correctly. But that does not change the fact that when the rules tells us where to get info for a field from... that is where we need to get the info from... unless Ken and/or Gerri tells us differently. | | | | Pete | | | | Last edited: by Addicted2DVD |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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