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Opera 10 (Beta) released
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
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Registered: May 19, 2007
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Opera 10 Beta is available (since 06/03)

If you want to try the future features of the IE today check here
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwhispering
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Quoting goblinsdoitall:
Quote:
If you want to try the future features of everyother browser today check here


Fixed 
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAstrakan
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While I love Opera the browser, it seems to me that Opera the company is just a whiny bitch.

I suppose I can understand their dismay over Microsoft including IE with Windows, although even that I think is pretty ridiculous - both OS X and Linux come with pre-packaged browsers, it's simply the most consumer friendly thing to do - and no one is throwing a fit over that.

What I can't understand is their insistense that it's not enough for Microsoft to simply remove IE from Windows 7, but that they also need to offer consumers the choice of browser upon installation. In essence, they want to force a competitor to do some of their marketing for them. What utter BS.

Sadly, I love their browser too much to join the boycott against them. 

KM
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Sounds a lot like what NetScape tried to do several years ago! 
Hal
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Quoting Astrakan:
Quote:
I suppose I can understand their dismay over Microsoft including IE with Windows, although even that I think is pretty ridiculous - both OS X and Linux come with pre-packaged browsers, it's simply the most consumer friendly thing to do - and no one is throwing a fit over that.


(I just quickly read it through, so correct me if i'm wrong)

Opera is not demanding anything, EC is and rightly so. What Opera is complaining that currently EC's ruling isnt working in practice. You cant deside what browser to use, IE is forced on all computers. Opera wants to change that, not force MicroSoft to advertice THEIR browser. On linux you can get rid of Firefox. I'm shocked though that Apple isnt penalised for using far worse practices then Microsoft.
 Last edited: by whispering
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAstrakan
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Quoting whispering:
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You cant deside what browser to use, IE is forced on all computers... On linux you can get rid of Firefox.

Windows 7 has been designed all along to allow you to uninstall IE, which is what made it easy for Microsoft to create a revised European-only version of Windows 7 that won't include the browser. Yet neither of these options are good enough for Opera.

Quoting whispering:
Quote:
(I just quickly read it through, so correct me if i'm wrong)

Opera is not demanding anything... You cant deside what browser to use, IE is forced on all computers. Opera wants to change that, not force MicroSoft to advertice THEIR browser.

Opera is the one that brought the antitrust complaint against Microsoft in the first place. And now when, as a result of that antitrust case, Microsoft has agreed to remove IE from Windows 7 in Europe, Opera says that that is not enough. That Microsoft should offer the "ballot-screen approach, which will give users a genuine choice."

In this Q&A they noted that they included this idea in their original complaint: "you could add more browsers, to give consumers a real choice between browsers, you put them in front of their eyeballs."

So yes, I would definitely say that they're calling for Microsoft to advertise Opera and other browsers, by including them with the OS. It's a ludicrous idea. With an 80% marketshare of the MP3 player market, Apple's iPod blows away
the market share of IE in the browser market (66%) and it is almost as dominating as Windows is in the OS
market (88%). Yet I don't see anyone arguing that Apple should start including "Have you considered a Zune?" stickers on their iPod boxes, or removing iTunes from OS X.

KM
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 Last edited: by Astrakan
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
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Astrakan, I think you have to see this in context. Microsoft and Opera have a history behind them. I don't know if you've heard this story before, but as early as 2001 Microsoft deliberately prevented Opera users from correctly viewing the MSN website - if you used Opera and went to the MSN website, it would not display correctly.
Opera's reaction back then was NOT to hire a battalion of lawyers to fight Microsoft, but to issue a special edition of Opera which had one distinctive feature: it translated the contents of MSN into Bork, the language used by the Swedish chef on The Muppets. You can read more about it here. I have to say that at the time, I really laughed my pants off, because they exposed Microsoft to be the jerks they really are, in a funny way at that.

More in general, Opera as a company is constantly displaying a whole lot more sense of humour than I have EVER seen from Microsoft. Just as an example, here's their April Fool's Day gag of this year (make sure to watch the video and to scroll down to the "Look at me" and "Known issues" bits...  ).
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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To this day, I still run into websites that do not render properly when I use Firefox.

It is highly unlikely that the owners of these sites are conspiring with Microsoft to undermine Firefox and force people to use IE.

It is much more likely that they simply coded the website based on what they knew (or don't know, depending on your point of view).  I have no problem with MS bundling whatever they want to into their operating system.

Everyone still has the option to use it or some other product of their choice.

Perhaps we should ban automakers from bundling engines in their cars so that consumers will have the option of installing the brand of their choice. 
Hal
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a better analogy might be to ban them from including an audio device so that the consumer can choose whatever make/model and features they would prefer. I don't see governments meddling in that regard anytime soon so its a little silly for them to be up in arms about anything as trivial as a web-browser.
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.
 Last edited: by whispering
DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantnuoyaxin
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Quoting hal9g:
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To this day, I still run into websites that do not render properly when I use Firefox.

It is highly unlikely that the owners of these sites are conspiring with Microsoft to undermine Firefox and force people to use IE.

It is much more likely that they simply coded the website based on what they knew (or don't know, depending on your point of view).  I have no problem with MS bundling whatever they want to into their operating system.

Everyone still has the option to use it or some other product of their choice.

Perhaps we should ban automakers from bundling engines in their cars so that consumers will have the option of installing the brand of their choice. 

You can run the Acid3 test to see how closely your briwser follows the standards.

Last time I tested I saw IE at approx. 20%, Firefox at 70% and Safari at 100%. I would be interested to see how Opera handles it. Have not seen or heard about tests with Google Chrome or any other browsers.

Of course, a 100% scroe in the Acid3 test does not mean that you can properly open all available websites. There are websites which follow the broken standards and basically only open in IE exclusively.
Achim [諾亞信; Ya-Shin//Nuo], a German in Taiwan.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAstrakan
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Quoting ya_shin:
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You can run the Acid3 test to see how closely your briwser follows the standards.

Last time I tested I saw IE at approx. 20%, Firefox at 70% and Safari at 100%. I would be interested to see how Opera handles it.

Just tested it with Opera 9.63 and got 85%

KM
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantvido
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
To this day, I still run into websites that do not render properly when I use Firefox.

It is highly unlikely that the owners of these sites are conspiring with Microsoft to undermine Firefox and force people to use IE.



The problem wasn't that it was a bad site design. The problem was it looked for the Opera ID and "on purpose" didn't render corectly. While yes it wasn't illegal for them to do since it was after all M$ site. It was shadey.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited Registrantvido
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Quoting Astrakan:

Quote:

Just tested it with Opera 9.63 and got 85%

KM


Opera 9.64 has been out might want to update. Plus from what I have read 10 beta is at 90% on the acid test.
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantDr. Killpatient
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Google Chrome scored 100/100 but also reported "LINKTEST FAILED".
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributordee1959jay
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Quoting bob9000:
Quote:
a better analogy might be to ban them from including an audio device so that the consumer can choose whatever make/model and features they would prefer. I don't see governments meddling in that regard anytime soon so its a little silly for them to be up in arms about anything as trivial as a web-browser.


I agree that's a much better analogy - the one hal gave could be compared to exchanging the kernel of your operating system...

What the European Commission intervention is about is fairness of competition in the marketplace, and there's nothing silly or trivial about that.  Over here we see EC inteventions in that area quite regularly and for a variety of reasons, including also national subsidies favouring national industries over foreign industries. Such subsidies are not allowed by European law, and rightfully so.
 Last edited: by dee1959jay
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