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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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 Must rules be followed ? (Locked) |
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Message |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
The Wikipedia definition of "Tyranny of the majority" refers to "a criticism of the scenario in which decisions made by a majority under that system would place that majority's interests so far above a dissenting individual's interest that the individual would be actively oppressed." There's no place for the individual in the concept of our main database. It should serve the greater good. Instead, our current rules serve those who gain comfort from a slavish adherence to rules. It should not be heretical to express a dissenting viewpoint that goes against the rules, but unfortunately that is not the case here...even if one is in the majority. I agree that the the main database should serve the greater good, but who gets to decide what the greater good is? Do we, as users get that choice? If we do, then we have spoken and we prefer, by a vote of 75 to 21, to keep 'common sense' out of the rules. For those areas that are 'open for debate', I always go with the majority, and keep my preferences local. That, in my opinion, is what everybody should be doing regardless of their own personal opinions on the matter. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree, Martian. I have said numerous times there is much data in Db that si not available, either by Rule or the program's inability to deal with it yet. When the program catches up there is goldmine of data to be pulled from that I use. In the meantime i will continue to strive to find ways whic a user's wish can be achieved without undermining the existing structure. And as I have said before, were I Ken I would have implemented my recommendation for surfeur's Francois type issue long ago, but i ain'tKen, and all I can say right now is we aren't there yet, Yves, be patient. I'm behind you on it
As for james, if you don't understand how what I said can be helpful, then you TRULY don't understand.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I agree that the the main database should serve the greater good, but who gets to decide what the greater good is? Do we, as users get that choice? If we do, then we have spoken and we prefer, by a vote of 75 to 21, to keep 'common sense' out of the rules. For those areas that are 'open for debate', I always go with the majority, and keep my preferences local. That, in my opinion, is what everybody should be doing regardless of their own personal opinions on the matter. Well, I don't know that we voted "to keep 'common sense' out of the rules". It was a vote on surfeur's rule suggestion. That includes the baggage of his wording, his reputation, the noise from Skip, etc. If Ken were to tweak the rules to allow people to explain a rule variance in their contribution, I think we'd do quite well with that. Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
As for james, if you don't understand how what I said can be helpful, then you TRULY don't understand.
Skip You attacked my credibility and used words such as childishness, sad and pathethic. You are correct that I truly don't understand how that's helpful to the discussion. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | " the noise from Skip, etc." and that is, James. That is exactly the type of BS language to which i refer. Youalso do very good at generating noise, james.  So completely clueless. You have ZERO credibility in this corner, you blew that a long time ago, and i know yopu couldn't even begin to guess how or why or even when. Skip  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Well, I don't know that we voted "to keep 'common sense' out of the rules". It was a vote on surfeur's rule suggestion. That includes the baggage of his wording, his reputation, the noise from Skip, etc. Maybe 'common sense' wasn't the best choice of words, but that is the term everybody uses for the variances that surfeur wanted. As to the baggage, I didn't take any of that into account. I voted on the basis of what I thought the rule modification wanted. Quote:
If Ken were to tweak the rules to allow people to explain a rule variance in their contribution, I think we'd do quite well with that. I disagree. I think it would cause more problems than it would solve. With the exception of a small minority of users, we can usually come to an agreement on most things. Where the problems come in is when that small minority get upset and do what they want anyway. Just my opinion.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
With the exception of a small minority of users, we can usually come to an agreement on most things. Where the problems come in is when that small minority get upset and do what they want anyway. Just my opinion. With the rules as they are currently written, we have to come to agreement on what the rules say. With the suggestion as I mentioned, we could come to agreement on what is best. Therein lies the difference. | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Well, I don't know that we voted "to keep 'common sense' out of the rules". It was a vote on surfeur's rule suggestion. That includes the baggage of his wording, his reputation, the noise from Skip, etc.
Maybe 'common sense' wasn't the best choice of words, but that is the term everybody uses for the variances that surfeur wanted. As to the baggage, I didn't take any of that into account. I voted on the basis of what I thought the rule modification wanted.
Quote:
If Ken were to tweak the rules to allow people to explain a rule variance in their contribution, I think we'd do quite well with that.
I disagree. I think it would cause more problems than it would solve. With the exception of a small minority of users, we can usually come to an agreement on most things. Where the problems come in is when that small minority get upset and do what they want anyway. Just my opinion. Completely ciorrect on all counts. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Well, I don't know that we voted "to keep 'common sense' out of the rules". It was a vote on surfeur's rule suggestion. That includes the baggage of his wording, his reputation, the noise from Skip, etc. This is an important point. I agree that my wording may be incorrect (after all, English is not my language), and my "anti-rules" reputation did not help (though I'm not against rules, I'm against a strict application in ALL cases of the rules). Perhaps the same kind of suggestion by someone else would have had more success. About common sense, that's simple, those are things most people do without thinking we could do in another manner : use soap (not strawberry jam) to wash hands, use a spoon (not a fork) to eat soup. Perhaps some people wash their hands with strawberry jam, but this is not common sense. This can apply to some areas in dvdprofiler : call persons by their names (not the name of another people), enter data that is useful (searchable, linkable...), and correct errors if they exist (not enter that "Lawrence of Arabia" has a 1.33 ratio). | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
With the rules as they are currently written, we have to come to agreement on what the rules say. With the suggestion as I mentioned, we could come to agreement on what is best. Therein lies the difference. The problem I have with that is twofold. First, we forum users are a very small minority of the Profiler community. There is no way we can know what is best. Best for us maybe, but not for the entire community. Second, we, by the mere act of participating in these forums, are not average users. As such, what we think is best, will be quite different from what the average user thinks is best. For those reasons, I can't support anything other than trying to figure out what the rules actually say and, once done, attempting to have the rules updated to reflect those revelations. Again, just my opinion. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
This is an important point. I agree that my wording may be incorrect (after all, English is not my language), and my "anti-rules" reputation did not help (though I'm not against rules, I'm against a strict application in ALL cases of the rules). Perhaps the same kind of suggestion by someone else would have had more success. Your voice is an important one and success isn't measured by one poll.  Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
The problem I have with that is twofold. First, we forum users are a very small minority of the Profiler community. There is no way we can know what is best. Best for us maybe, but not for the entire community. Second, we, by the mere act of participating in these forums, are not average users. As such, what we think is best, will be quite different from what the average user thinks is best.
For those reasons, I can't support anything other than trying to figure out what the rules actually say and, once done, attempting to have the rules updated to reflect those revelations. Again, just my opinion. I would prefer that the agreement come from those that vote on the profile in question, but if that's not the case, aren't forum users (the "very small minority") the same set of folks that would attempt to have the rules updated in your example? | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
About common sense, that's simple, those are things most people do without thinking we could do in another manner : use soap (not strawberry jam) to wash hands, use a spoon (not a fork) to eat soup. Perhaps some people wash their hands with strawberry jam, but this is not common sense. This can apply to some areas in dvdprofiler : call persons by their names (not the name of another people), enter data that is useful (searchable, linkable...), and correct errors if they exist (not enter that "Lawrence of Arabia" has a 1.33 ratio). While the first half of your post deals with things that are common sense, the second half does not. Whether or not you want to correct spelling errors in an overview, since I know some people do and others do not, is a personal preference. Using a persons real name, instead of the credited name...exactly as credited...is a personal preference. Entering data that is useful, since what is or isn't useful depends on who you are, is a personal preference. No matter what standard we use, someone is going to be unhappy. Since that is the case, we might as well stick with the standard that we are already using. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
With the exception of a small minority of users, we can usually come to an agreement on most things. Where the problems come in is when that small minority get upset and do what they want anyway. Just my opinion.
With the rules as they are currently written, we have to come to agreement on what the rules say. With the suggestion as I mentioned, we could come to agreement on what is best. Therein lies the difference. That is the same thing, James and would improve nothing unfortunately. First users have to follow the Rules and vote to the Rules, this definitely includes you , James. I am amzed at frequently you completely ignore the Rules. No, James, the CORRECT way to work is the way i work, the Rules arebased upon a foundation, and anytime someone makes arequest I look for a way to accommodate what they wish within the system, now sometimes that can't happen such as surfeur's desire to fix typos, other times I can create a scenario that can work , I just can't implement it, and until Ken decides to implement something there isn't much more thart I can do besides discuss the solution. Now why is fixing typos a big thing. Well first one must understand something about collecting is there a potential for big money to come out of this hobby. Absolutely, sometimes it may be based on relative rarity, errors...whatever. But just as with any other hobby of collecting , be it comic books, books, postage stamps, coins...whatever. It is important to be able to document the error, which means dealing strictly with the data, in addition to documenting the error IF there is a subsequent correction as noted recently in another thread, we should also be able to document the correction as that will become one the means of distinguishing it from the "error" or the typo in surfeur's lingo. Right now the latter is a weakness of Profiler and could be improved and I imagine will be at some point. The famed US Postage Stamp of the upside down Curtis Jenny Airplane, one of the most valuable stamps in the world, under surfeur's system of correcting errors would be completely ignored because he would call it a typo and he knows better. Well that particular when it sells I believe is in the range of hundreds of thousands of dollars these days but some users think they should be able to ignorer such things...no thanks. The data Rules and i believe Ken understands this premise completely, so once we get to the point of understanding the basic concept, then we can start figuring out how to accommodate user wishes such as Francois or whatever the desire is. I would like to be able capture proper Runtimes, by that I mean both a Theatrical Release and an Extendee Release when together, but right now all we can capture is ONE runtime and it has been decided that should be the longest version in the set. OK, fine, I can capture the data I want by other means, and i will wait patiently for the ability to capture more data. I would like to see more specific data for Features than just the Generic basically non-informative data we use today, but right now, i have to do that in my own way, that's fine, I wait. There are many such wishes on my list. And I am content to wait, I don't crave immediate graification, I didn't get to be my age by caving to the base instincts of I want it NOW!, some of us sound like Veruca Salt. I will continue to wait and i will continue to try and find ways to accommodate people, but i can't implement them, I will also continue to defend the Rules and state my beliefs which are firmly rooted in database design principles and I als am all too aware that ny two designers if locked up with a problem are likely to come up with different approaches, just as Ken came up with a different approach than i would have used for linking...that's the nature of the game. I still believe I am correct, after several years, based on right now i cannot construct a scenario that indicates that his is the better solution, BUT he might have something up his sleeve and when I get to see it, i may well say aha, he showed me something i missed...time will tell. Skip Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting m.cellophane: Quote:
I would prefer that the agreement come from those that vote on the profile in question, Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but wouldn't that create a different standard for each profile? How is that better than a set standard for every profile? Quote:
but if that's not the case, aren't forum users (the "very small minority") the same set of folks that would attempt to have the rules updated in your example? Yes they would be the same set of folks but, once published, the rules are available for everyone to see and use. In addition, Ken usually comes down on the side of the silent majority so anything we propose would be tempered by his hand. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
Well, I don't know that we voted "to keep 'common sense' out of the rules". It was a vote on surfeur's rule suggestion. That includes the baggage of his wording, his reputation, the noise from Skip, etc.
This is an important point. I agree that my wording may be incorrect (after all, English is not my language), and my "anti-rules" reputation did not help (though I'm not against rules, I'm against a strict application in ALL cases of the rules). Perhaps the same kind of suggestion by someone else would have had more success.
About common sense, that's simple, those are things most people do without thinking we could do in another manner : use soap (not strawberry jam) to wash hands, use a spoon (not a fork) to eat soup. Perhaps some people wash their hands with strawberry jam, but this is not common sense. This can apply to some areas in dvdprofiler : call persons by their names (not the name of another people), enter data that is useful (searchable, linkable...), and correct errors if they exist (not enter that "Lawrence of Arabia" has a 1.33 ratio). Yves: And if someone does wash their hands with strawberry jam, they may very well find your use of soap to be lacking in common sense. Who are you to put your common sense values above someone else's. Bottom line, my friend, is that you can't do that. I am not trying to fight with you , I am trying to deepen your understanding. Martian is right in reference to what you want creating a different standard for each profile. We had that with the guidelines and it was an utter train wreck. So a system was designed to work towards developing a single dataset for the Online, one that was based in reality not any single user or even group of user's imagination. Sometimes there are ways to work within the system to achieve a desired objective as I have tried to do with your desire, Yves, but I can't make it happen, I can only support it. We had users writing their own Overviews, Yves, and then "fighting" over who wrote the best one, and the Overviews literally changed every week. So from the Online POV we took that away. it doesn't prevent you from writing your own Overview or correcting what you believe to be typos, it DOES prevent them from being Contributed with the incidental Overview data war. And as I said recently, my view of these things evolved the larger my collection got, and i am not Srethims. When we moved from Intervocative to Invelos I had over 3000 updates, at that time that was well over half my collection and wishlist and it took me THREE years to dig through all of them, with them being modified and added to all the while.  That was some serious work. I've probably wasted my time again, but i had to try. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting m.cellophane:
Quote:
I would prefer that the agreement come from those that vote on the profile in question,
Maybe I am misunderstanding you here, but wouldn't that create a different standard for each profile? How is that better than a set standard for every profile?
Quote:
but if that's not the case, aren't forum users (the "very small minority") the same set of folks that would attempt to have the rules updated in your example?
Yes they would be the same set of folks but, once published, the rules are available for everyone to see and use. In addition, Ken usually comes down on the side of the silent majority so anything we propose would be tempered by his hand. You are correct on both counts. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Since that is the case, we might as well stick with the standard that we are already using. OK, I understand this position, but with no exception. Remember" two movies-one side disc" problem. Rules say this is a boxset, but program refuses contribution. Your argumentation at that time is that some data is better than no data. As I see things, in that case, you allowed yourself to violate rules, though I ask to modify rules in a way that we may derogate them on odd documented cases. With such a disposition, in fact, application of rules may be more strict since no violation is necessary. | | | | Images from movies |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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