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    Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion Page: 1... 5 6 7  Previous   Next
"Common Name" problem!
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAddicted2DVD
Registered: March 13, 2007
Reputation: Highest Rating
United States Posts: 17,334
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I agree with Tim... I have said over and over again that I don't like the linking system (not to mention the who Birth Year thing)... But that is how Invelos wants it at this time. So that is the boundaries that we need to work in.

We can't take it among ourselves to do it differently for the online database. If wanted can do differently locally. But until Invelos changes their mind if we want to contribute to the online... we have to do it the way they want it done.
Pete
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
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Quoting MikaLove:
Quote:
So the "common name" issue creates somewhat of a hysteria, it seems.

Better to fix the system than to have erroneous contributions which don't even follow the rules or to add BY.

Yes and Yes
I'd completely support any approach that is a) easier to handle than the current "common name"-system and b) is foolproof.
The problem (as usual): The common name is the worst system, except for the other existing systems.
No system that I know of would be any better than existing.
None is foolproof (or is coming even close to it), so incorrect submissions will always occur (That's what the evaluation process is for. And one valid "No" usually outweighs a thousand "Yes").
None would be easier to handle, and believe it or not, this is one of the reasons why many users chose this program.
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting goblinsdoitall:
Quote:

But I'd opt for working with the system we have, it may be far from perfect, but I seriously doubt, that yours is any better.


What you call my system is what we had two years ago, before Ken's clarification. Can you explain me why it worked at that time ? I remember I made a total linking review of my collection in the Intervocative-Invelos transition period. I had quite no linking problems except on asian names (that's why I've asked many times for a tick box to reverse names). At that time, accented names were correct (of course I speak only for titles I owned, but for those ones, present database is an horrible mess)


May I have a chance to get an answer to this bolded question ? T!M explained me I'm silly and do not propose anything workable, and Goblin that he doubts this system is better. How a system that worked in the past can be worse than a system that doesn't work at present time ?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributornorthbloke
Registered: March 15, 2007
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The answer to your question is: it didn't work then. But we didn't have the CLT then, so we didn't realise how bad things were. It may have worked for you, and it's unfortunate that the ruling by Ken has made things worse for you, but as a system it sucked just as bad as the current one does.
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
Quoting goblinsdoitall:
Quote:

But I'd opt for working with the system we have, it may be far from perfect, but I seriously doubt, that yours is any better.


What you call my system is what we had two years ago, before Ken's clarification. Can you explain me why it worked at that time ? I remember I made a total linking review of my collection in the Intervocative-Invelos transition period. I had quite no linking problems except on asian names (that's why I've asked many times for a tick box to reverse names). At that time, accented names were correct (of course I speak only for titles I owned, but for those ones, present database is an horrible mess)


May I have a chance to get an answer to this bolded question ? T!M explained me I'm silly and do not propose anything workable, and Goblin that he doubts this system is better. How a system that worked in the past can be worse than a system that doesn't work at present time ?


Sorry, overread your question.
The problem is that, if I recall this correctly, it didn't work. At least not in total.
French credits were fine in French speaking localities, Scandinavian in their region and so forth, but outside of these not two profiles of the same movie were alike. In one profile you found the orthographically correct version for the CoO of the movie, in the next you found "exactly as credited" and the very next mixed up both.
That's why the clarification was necessary.
If it worked for you that's fine by me, it definitely didn't work for everyone and in every locality.

Regarding your idea of the "Reverse Name"-button: I originally thought this to be a good idea and then found out that some Asian movies already adopted the European naming conventions and have the names in European order. Since my knowledge of Asian names is very poor I am not able to distinguish a first from a last name even if I see it (especially since in not only a few cases a name can be both), so I wouldn't be able to recognize these "reversed" credits.
So it's probably still a good idea but it wouldn't be of any use for me, because I wouldn't know when and how to use it. (But I admit that this might be only correct for me and therefore wouldn't object to the function as such).
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorDanae Cassandra
Registered: Apr 11, 2004
Registered: May 26, 2007
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What I would like to see is some method whereby some unique identifier - whatever that identifier is - is assigned to each cast and crew person.  For those persons who have the same name, the burden of proof would fall upon the contributor to identify that Joe Smith (A) is different from Joe Smith (B), just as it is now with the BY issue, but once Joe Smith (B) has been identified as a different person, he would get assigned a specific identifier.  Perhaps it could work off their first known credit?

Then, once Joe Smith has his identifier, there would be a way to plug in all the permutations of his name so that those alternate names link to him.  Somehow the number of credits for each variant would link to this, so that the name that would come up for him would be his most credited version ...

So, using the actor George "Gabby" Hayes (whose common name I'm still trying to find) as the example:

Name Variants:
- George Hayes
- George "Gabby" Hayes
- George Gabby Hayes
- Gabby Hayes
- Geo. F. Hayes

All these would link together via the Identifier.  Whichever name came out as the most credited would list as his main name.

At least, this is how it conceives in my brain.  I am not a programmer, so I have no idea how well this would work IRL.

But it would seem to me that the first thing that would have to be done is to clean up the DB.  A lot of incorrect credits exist in the DB as it stands, credits that were mined wholesale from IMDB and have not been looked at in years and years.  For instance, right not the common name via the CLT for Gabby is George 'Gabby' Hayes - with single quotes.  But I have yet to find any film where he is credited this way.  I believe this variant may not actually exist outside of IMDB at all.

So, since there is no actual hope of a new linking system on the horizon, it would seem the best choice for all of us is to try to clean up the DB as it exists now.  Get the credits correct per the film first, then we will actually know what the correct common name is.  That seems the logical thing to me anyway.
If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting goblinsdoitall:
Quote:

The problem is that, if I recall this correctly, it didn't work. At least not in total.
French credits were fine in French speaking localities, Scandinavian in their region and so forth, but outside of these not two profiles of the same movie were alike.


I have not at all the same analysis. As now, most profiles were copied from a locality to another. But even if you are right, the situation where all R1 US profiles linked together, all R2 Spain or Germany or France profiles linked correctly together, was better than a situation where nobody nowhere can benefit of linking. In fact I saw things going wrong as long as some people began to use Ken's clarification (which, BTW, still says the contrary of present rules) to modify credited names, inventing data that do not exist even in credits.

Well, my hopes to be able to unlock any field of any profile of my collection have vanished, since under present situation, the online will never have correct data.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorLewis_Prothero
Strength Through Unity
Registered: May 19, 2007
Reputation: Superior Rating
Germany Posts: 6,730
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Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
the online will never have correct data.

On this we can agree.
But IMHO it's not the basis that spoils the data, but the laziness (or disinterest) of the users.
As an example: about 18 months ago I pointed out that just about every profile of "The Dark Crystal" is incorrect. Profiles corrected in 18 months: 3 (!!)
It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?


Registrant since 05/22/2003
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
Since July 3, 2003
Registered: March 29, 2007
Reputation: Great Rating
France Posts: 4,479
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Quoting goblinsdoitall:
Quote:
... (or disinterest) of the users.


Also agree with you here. Except those for whom contributing anything, even virtual, is a hobby, who can be interested in a base were most data are intentionally wrong ?
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantDraxen
I see shiny discs...
Registered: March 13, 2007
Finland Posts: 681
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Quoting MikaLove:
Quote:

...
Why not use iMDB a bit more? I trust that site more than I trust that all people here always contribute in a correct and accurate way. And actually look at the credits after (or before) the movies.
...


Are you aware of free Java-based application called "datacrow"?
http://www.datacrow.net/

With it you can get all the cast and crew information directly from IMDb to your local database, including headshots if you wish, including personal bios, trivia, etc... with automated web-search. I have only tested it myself, not used all that much, but for your needs as far as I understand them, it might be very suitable. Every actor gets IMDb name, and if you entered your whole collection (works with movies in any format) there, all actors would be linked. You can create your own detailed and searchable datafields for e.g. storage medium, format, size (if movie is as file), etc. etc. with custom fields.

It doesn't really compete with DVD Profiler, because it doesn't have online DVD release database - you would have to enter all your movies yourself based on IMDb info (or Amazon, if you so wish). Also, I don't believe there is any way to import your Profiler database there, but not 100% sure of that.

It works completely in Java, and there is no typical installation. With large collections it might become very "heavy" to operate - especially if you decide to use lots of photos in the data, but you can put the whole collection in e.g. memory stick and carry it with you. No need to install any programs for it to use, if you have Java.

For my needs, DVD Profiler is the best program out there, but if you e.g. have lots of movies as downloads, without any UPC or such, this is a nice environment to keep that collection organised as well. Worth checking out, maybe.
Mika
I hate people who love me, and they hate me. (Bender Bending Rodriguez)
 Last edited: by Draxen
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorMikaLove
Knowledge is Power
Registered: May 2, 2009
Reputation: High Rating
Posts: 490
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Quoting Danae Cassandra:
Quote:
What I would like to see is some method whereby some unique identifier - whatever that identifier is - is assigned to each cast and crew person.  For those persons who have the same name, the burden of proof would fall upon the contributor to identify that Joe Smith (A) is different from Joe Smith (B), just as it is now with the BY issue, but once Joe Smith (B) has been identified as a different person, he would get assigned a specific identifier.  Perhaps it could work off their first known credit?

Then, once Joe Smith has his identifier, there would be a way to plug in all the permutations of his name so that those alternate names link to him.  Somehow the number of credits for each variant would link to this, so that the name that would come up for him would be his most credited version ...

So, using the actor George "Gabby" Hayes (whose common name I'm still trying to find) as the example:

Name Variants:
- George Hayes
- George "Gabby" Hayes
- George Gabby Hayes
- Gabby Hayes
- Geo. F. Hayes

All these would link together via the Identifier.  Whichever name came out as the most credited would list as his main name.

At least, this is how it conceives in my brain.  I am not a programmer, so I have no idea how well this would work IRL.

But it would seem to me that the first thing that would have to be done is to clean up the DB.  A lot of incorrect credits exist in the DB as it stands, credits that were mined wholesale from IMDB and have not been looked at in years and years.  For instance, right not the common name via the CLT for Gabby is George 'Gabby' Hayes - with single quotes.  But I have yet to find any film where he is credited this way.  I believe this variant may not actually exist outside of IMDB at all.

So, since there is no actual hope of a new linking system on the horizon, it would seem the best choice for all of us is to try to clean up the DB as it exists now.  Get the credits correct per the film first, then we will actually know what the correct common name is.  That seems the logical thing to me anyway.

It seems to me that this has been in essence my proposal the latest 10 or so posts...

Just what Danae Cassandra writes.

Link the names together in some way, after having verified that the names are in fact the same person.

And I DO agree that we absolutely must clean up the DB as it is now. It's "filthy".

Yesterday I sat during a lot of the night and cleaned up some studio names, for example.
Per the new rule about omitting ", Inc.", "N.V.", "GmbH", "BV", "AB", "OY", "Ltd.", "A/S", etc.
But I also removed lots of other incomplete studio entries.
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