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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
Don't be discommodious
Registered: March 13, 2007
United States Posts: 21,610
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Quoting J68:
Quote:
From what I've read here. I know I'm going to be in the minority here - I won't be too fussed if you ignore me - though that's not nice 

We have a list of positively identified entities that were not listed in the "end credits."  This was a conscious decision made by the film-maker.  That weakens the argument to include them in the cast (you would have had a stronger argument if they'd been totally overlooked).

From the screen shot provided by the OP - it looks to me that the "credits" belong to the The Geddes Agency (for casting extras).

The film-maker knew about them and chose not to give them acting credits. Why would we chose to give them those acting credits?

But they were given acting credits, just in a different spot.  My problem with this stance, and it is the same problem I have with Skip's stance, is that the rules define two types of credits...

  • credits where all credited actors involved are listed at the end of the film*

  • credits where all credited actors involved are NOT listed at the end of the film


  • There is no question that these peopple were credited.  Since they were, we are allowed to enter them.

    *you will note that the rule does not say "listed together at the end of the film" so, technically, any actor listed after the film ends, and before the credits end, is part of the 'end credits' as defined in the rules...but we will leave that fight for another day.

    They are outside the Standard credits, we have noprovision in the Rules to bring them.Your arguments are fundamentally faulty,my friend. Now what i want to see you do is try to set parameters as i have described.Right now these credits are simply outside of the Rules plain and simple,Martian. The answer has to be NO!!!!Period, For now, am I against them...No...not if we can come up with parameters that will work every time for all users. Where shall we look for this data and what form will it take,right now we are applying Additional Voices which are part of the ADR credits, not part of the cast in any way. The answer that was given in that discussion is simply unacceptable and it was given by a user i expected better off..."I know an actor when I see it". That is not a parameter. So let's discuss how we might be able to accomplish instead of harping on your faulty logic,I am sorry. as usual you completely misunderstand me, NOW the answer HAS to be NO, it's outside of the Rules. Can we in the future, I don't think so, but i am willing to  listen and even curious, instead your ignoring the question simply tells me that i am right, there is NO way to provide parameters for this sort of data. Frankly,I wish there were, but you are more interested in defending your own faulty logic than in actually engaging in a solution which could work.

    I hope you will change your mind. And actually engage in a useful discussion on possible parameters...I hope so
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
     Last edited: by Winston Smith
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJ68
    Registered: September 11, 2010
    Posts: 42
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    Providing credits for uncredited actors isn't compulsory.  In my view, it would only be worth doing if the particular actor had what could be described as "an appreciable body of work" that could be credited to them.  An actor that "makes it big" may have started out in films as an extra an be uncredited - the additional "uncredited" notes would be valuable.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
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    Quoting J68:
    Quote:
    Providing credits for uncredited actors isn't compulsory.  In my view, it would only be worth doing if the particular actor had what could be described as "an appreciable body of work" that could be credited to them.  An actor that "makes it big" may have started out in films as an extra an be uncredited - the additional "uncredited" notes would be valuable.

    Not unlike an argument Ken used  several years ago and in principle I agree
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
    Proudly blocked by liars.
    Registered: August 23, 2008
    Reputation: High Rating
    United States Posts: 1,656
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    Quoting J68:
    Quote:
    Providing credits for uncredited actors isn't compulsory.  In my view, it would only be worth doing if the particular actor had what could be described as "an appreciable body of work" that could be credited to them.  An actor that "makes it big" may have started out in films as an extra an be uncredited - the additional "uncredited" notes would be valuable.


    See, uncredited is very important to me, as I own a crap-ton of independent films, so "an appreciable body of work" would very rarely apply. I have a good amount of actors in my database that are not very well known at all, but I do appreciate when someone finds them in another low-budget feature where they might have been uncredited and provides an update to the database.
    Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

    "I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
    Alien with an attitude
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Reputation: Highest Rating
    United States Posts: 13,202
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    Quoting Winston Smith:
    Quote:
    I hope you will change your mind. And actually engage in a useful discussion on possible parameters...I hope so

    Once again, and for the last time, I already gave you my parameters.  You don't like them, so have chosen to ignore them.  Continuing to pretend otherwise isn't going to get you a different set of parameters.
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
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    I have not seen you list any parameters. I have seen you go on annd on trying tomake a Standard cast list Non-Standard which just is not true. Ferris Bueller uses a Standard Cast list as defined by the rules,the current Rules do not allow for us to look within the crew data to perhaps find other actors. The closest thing I have ever seen to some parameter was buizarre in the extreme...I know an actor when i see one; that is NOT a parameter, that is a guess. Now if wrapped your parameters into one your arguments i missed it, but i don;'t think you did. I request that you post your parameters again...how can we know that these are actors each and every time...why isn't a gaffer an actor, they are part of the crew too and that is where this data appears. How can we KNOW.
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJ68
    Registered: September 11, 2010
    Posts: 42
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    Quoting Alien Redrum:
    Quote:

    See, uncredited is very important to me, as I own a crap-ton of independent films, so "an appreciable body of work" would very rarely apply.


    I don't think you're arguing for compulsory addition of uncredited actors.  It sounds as though you'd be the authority on the independent films you own, so you'd be expected to provide the evidence of the uncredited actor, so I don't see a problem.
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantAlien Redrum
    Proudly blocked by liars.
    Registered: August 23, 2008
    Reputation: High Rating
    United States Posts: 1,656
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    Quoting J68:
    Quote:
    Quoting Alien Redrum:
    Quote:

    See, uncredited is very important to me, as I own a crap-ton of independent films, so "an appreciable body of work" would very rarely apply.


    I don't think you're arguing for compulsory addition of uncredited actors.  It sounds as though you'd be the authority on the independent films you own, so you'd be expected to provide the evidence of the uncredited actor, so I don't see a problem.


    Oh, no, no, no. Not at all. 

    You are correct, I"m not arguing for a compulsory addition of anything.

    What I am arguing for is should someone want to credit someone who is not currently credited, they should be allowed. If they person or people they are adding is in the credits, regardless of placement, there should be no debate.
    Reviewer, HorrorTalk.com

    "I also refuse to document CLT results and I pay my bills to avoid going to court." - Sam, keeping it real, yo.
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
    Alien with an attitude
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Reputation: Highest Rating
    United States Posts: 13,202
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    Quoting Winston Smith:
    Quote:
    I have not seen you list any parameters.

    Then you haven't read everything I have written.  One last time, though I don't know why I bother because I am fairly sure what the response is going to be...

    If they are listed with a role, like the Jackson children in LotR, they are cast.
    If they are listed under a group role, like they are in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, they are cast.
    If they are listed under the headings of 'Additional Cast' or 'Additional Voices', they are cast.
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJ68
    Registered: September 11, 2010
    Posts: 42
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    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:

    If they are listed with a role, like the Jackson children in LotR, they are cast.

    The cast credits we have for LoTR: Fellowship of the Ring have the final cast entries as:

    Quote:
    Cute Hobbit Children Billy Jackson
    Katie Jackson
      Timothy Bartlett as Hobbit (Uncredited)
    Taea Hartwell as Child Hobbit (Uncredited)
    Peter Jackson (1961) as Albert Dreary (Uncredited)
    Bret McKenzie as Elf Figwit (Uncredited)

    Is there any particular reason we don't list other people who obviously appeared in the film, such as stunt performers and others who may have appeared, such doubles and stand-ins or "parade participants"? 
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
    Alien with an attitude
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Reputation: Highest Rating
    United States Posts: 13,202
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    Quoting J68:
    Quote:
    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:

    If they are listed with a role, like the Jackson children in LotR, they are cast.

    The cast credits we have for LoTR: Fellowship of the Ring have the final cast entries as:

    Quote:
    Cute Hobbit Children Billy Jackson
    Katie Jackson
      Timothy Bartlett as Hobbit (Uncredited)
    Taea Hartwell as Child Hobbit (Uncredited)
    Peter Jackson (1961) as Albert Dreary (Uncredited)
    Bret McKenzie as Elf Figwit (Uncredited)

    Is there any particular reason we don't list other people who obviously appeared in the film, such as stunt performers and others who may have appeared, such doubles and stand-ins or "parade participants"? 

    I believe the portion of my post that you quoted, along with the portion you omitted, answers that question...because they aren't credited with a role.
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
     Last edited: by TheMadMartian
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
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    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:
    Quoting Winston Smith:
    Quote:
    I have not seen you list any parameters.

    Then you haven't read everything I have written.  One last time, though I don't know why I bother because I am fairly sure what the response is going to be...

    If they are listed with a role, like the Jackson children in LotR, they are cast.
    If they are listed under a group role, like they are in Ferris Bueller's Day Off, they are cast.
    If they are listed under the headings of 'Additional Cast' or 'Additional Voices', they are cast.

    Additionalcast is far better than Additional voices,in my experience additionalvoices are just a melange of noise, indistinguishable and unidentifiiable. At leat an Additional Actor can be seen. There is something in the back of my mind that says this will be a can of worms, but those parameters, I hope would be workable with the exception of Additional Voices, when Voices are not part of the cast but instead part of the Sound Grouping it is done for  reason. They aren't actors, they would be closer akin to foley work,providing crowd noise and the like.

    But Ferris bueller still is off limits today, let's hope for tomorrow.
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
     Last edited: by Winston Smith
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorKathy
    Registered: May 29, 2007
    Reputation: Highest Rating
    United States Posts: 3,475
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    Stunt doubles and stand-ins are not allowed although I can't find the relevant section to point out to you (HELP!).

    But, focusing on the "Parade Participants" issue.

    The fact is that "Parade Participants" ARE credited in the DVD credits. The argument is WHERE they are credited.

    Does it matter where Cast are listed in the credits in order to be added to DVDP?

    One side says yes, the other no. I don't see this answer being solved in the forums to the satisfaction of either side.

    So, unless Ken or Gerri chimes in, we will not have a definitive answer for either side.
    DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
    Alien with an attitude
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    Reputation: Highest Rating
    United States Posts: 13,202
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    You are, of course, correct Kathy.  Do I dare...close the bathroom door...turn off the light...look into the mirror...Zombie, Zombie, Zombie!
    No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
    There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
    Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
    The Centauri learned this lesson once.
    We will teach it to them again.
    Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
    - Citizen G'Kar
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorWinston Smith
    Don't be discommodious
    Registered: March 13, 2007
    United States Posts: 21,610
    Posted:
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    The biggest single reason that Stunt Personnel are not included is because they do  not get any sort of awards. That said I can certainly get behind Stunt peopleif they are wanted in the future, but one caveat, they seem to be considered cast...most or some of the time.
    ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
    CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
    Outta here

    Billy Video
    DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantJ68
    Registered: September 11, 2010
    Posts: 42
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    Quoting TheMadMartian:
    Quote:
    I believe the portion of my post that you quoted, along with the portion you omitted, answers that question...because they aren't credited with a role.


    So, the thrust of your argument is that "Parade Participant" is a role and that they should be included whether or not they actually appeared in the film - because the section they have been listed in does not give me any confidence that they actually appeared at all. 

    Even if you can see a band playing, how do you know its the one that's been named?
    Why do you attribute the descriptor "Parade Participant" with a role, when its a description of an activity they undertook rather than a role they played?

    In this instance, you are assuming that the "credits" refer to entities who appeared in a film based on a description of an activity (not a role) that they took part in, which might or might not have been in the final print.
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