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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Honorifics and the 'Credited As' field |
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| Author |
Message |
  | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 |  Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Sorry Hal, I'm with T!M as well. The data is simple and that's Gibson. You're argument against the first name field is that it's incorrect data because it's his last name. Well the stage name isn't a first name either. There is no separate field for the stage name and the rules tell us to put it as a first name. There's no way to enter such data correctly in that way of thinking.
Of course I want a technical change so we can enter Gibson as last name, but that isn't the case right now. Locally you can enter it your way, but for the online just stick to the rules. Besides, to get to know his first name you'll need a third party. | | | | Cor |
| | Registered: October 6, 2008 |  Posts: 1,932 |
| | Posted: | | | | It occurred to me that we agree to interpret stage names that act like real names as if they were real names. e.g. Cary Grant. Why is it such a stretch to interpret "real" names that act like stage names as if they were stage names. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
"More correct" is still not correct as you are knowingly putting incorrect information into the first name field. This is expressly forbidden by the Rules. Really? Please be so kind as to show me the rule that expressly forbids this. Quote:
For credited cast, the "common name" DOES NOT have to match actual credits. That's what "Credited As" is for. Again, really? I am fairly sure that the common name is supposed to be the most commonly credited form of the name. While it doesn't have to match the credit, it does have to match a majority of actual credits. Quote:
There are two possible solutions here.
1. Ken can delete the new rule. This would be the simplest.
2. Ken can remove the mandatory requirement on the first name field. This obviously would require a program change.
At this point, I feel #1 is the only viable solution. while I agree with you that #1 is the better choice, there is a third solution, you just don't like it. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | OMG | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 | | Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | I hope nobody is going to vote for Wing/Cmdr./Gibson...  Seriously, we have a technical restriction that the First Name field can not be empty. We also have resolved for other cases (stage names, groups) that names that do not fit the normal 3-name structure go completely in the first field. So why not do so here, since Wing Cmdr. as a first name (only) also makes no sense and is recently against the rules. In a similar case, I found "Singh//Shera Family", which is a group (see the role), and in my opinion only properly fits completely in the first name field, letting alone the issue of whether Singh or Shera is the family name. Challenge: how many pages can we discuss this one? | | | | Hans |
| | Registered: June 12, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,665 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Again, really? I am fairly sure that the common name is supposed to be the most commonly credited form of the name. While it doesn't have to match the credit, it does have to match a majority of actual credits. It does, except when it doesn't. Ken created filters for people like Robert Downey Jr. and J.K. Simmon that forced a common name where one may not exist. Ken's created exceptions before, now he's just making us do the work. Admiral T.J. Cassidy becomes T. J. Cassidy[Admiral T.J. Cassidy] even though his only credit is Top Gun. Many of these Honorifics will end up with "common" names that never existed. | | | | Bad movie? You're soaking in it! |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Staid S Barr: Quote:
I hope nobody is going to vote for Wing/Cmdr./Gibson...
Seriously, we have a technical restriction that the First Name field can not be empty. We also have resolved for other cases (stage names, groups) that names that do not fit the normal 3-name structure go completely in the first field. So why not do so here, since Wing Cmdr. as a first name (only) also makes no sense and is recently against the rules.
In a similar case, I found "Singh//Shera Family", which is a group (see the role), and in my opinion only properly fits completely in the first name field, letting alone the issue of whether Singh or Shera is the family name.
Challenge: how many pages can we discuss this one? Staid: Not this little black duck.  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Sorry Hal, I'm with T!M as well. The data is simple and that's Gibson. You're argument against the first name field is that it's incorrect data because it's his last name. Well the stage name isn't a first name either. There is no separate field for the stage name and the rules tell us to put it as a first name. There's no way to enter such data correctly in that way of thinking.
Of course I want a technical change so we can enter Gibson as last name, but that isn't the case right now. Locally you can enter it your way, but for the online just stick to the rules. Besides, to get to know his first name you'll need a third party. But a stage name is not a last name either. Gibson is. Besides the Rules tell us specifically how to handle stage names. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
"More correct" is still not correct as you are knowingly putting incorrect information into the first name field. This is expressly forbidden by the Rules.
Really? Please be so kind as to show me the rule that expressly forbids this. Well, for one, this from the "Voting Rules" section: Quoting the Rules: Quote:
If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate... Entering the last name into the first name field is not accurate. A "no" vote is required. Quote:
Quote:
For credited cast, the "common name" DOES NOT have to match actual credits. That's what "Credited As" is for.
Again, really? I am fairly sure that the common name is supposed to be the most commonly credited form of the name. While it doesn't have to match the credit, it does have to match a majority of actual credits. A little back paddling there? You said, and I quote "For credited cast and crew, the information must match the actual credits", and we are talking about what is to be entered into the "common name" field in this thread! I can certainly understand why you would feel a need to re-phrase that. Quote:
while I agree with you that #1 is the better choice, there is a third solution, you just don't like it. Not unless you want to break the Rules. I really am surprised that you would advocate putting known wrong data in the first name field deliberately. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tweeter: Quote:
It does, except when it doesn't. Ken created filters for people like Robert Downey Jr. and J.K. Simmon that forced a common name where one may not exist.
Ken's created exceptions before, now he's just making us do the work.
Admiral T.J. Cassidy becomes T. J. Cassidy[Admiral T.J. Cassidy] even though his only credit is Top Gun.
Many of these Honorifics will end up with "common" names that never existed. Not, that I understand, what I don't understand is entering ''Guy/ /Gibson [Wing Comdr. Gibson]' when no such credit exists. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Well, for one, this from the "Voting Rules" section:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate...
Entering the last name into the first name field is not accurate. A "no" vote is required. Um, maybe I missed it, but that doesn't 'expressly forbid' anything. Talk about back peddling.  Quote:
Quote:
Again, really? I am fairly sure that the common name is supposed to be the most commonly credited form of the name. While it doesn't have to match the credit, it does have to match a majority of actual credits.
A little back paddling there? You said, and I quote "For credited cast and crew, the information must match the actual credits", and we are talking about what is to be entered into the "common name" field in this thread! I can certainly understand why you would feel a need to re-phrase that. No back peddling at all. You will note I said 'actual credits', plural, not 'actual credit', singular. You didn't seem to understand, so I clarified it for you...not that it matters as there is no rule that allows you to add a name that doesn't exist in the credits. Quote:
Quote:
while I agree with you that #1 is the better choice, there is a third solution, you just don't like it.
Not unless you want to break the Rules. This from the person who suggested that we use a false common name, which most definately breaks the rules.  Quote:
I really am surprised that you would advocate putting known wrong data in the first name field deliberately. It is the only option we have due to the program limitations. I don't like it but, as I said earlier, it is more correct than your suggestion. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Well, for one, this from the "Voting Rules" section:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate...
Entering the last name into the first name field is not accurate. A "no" vote is required.
In that reasoning I must vote no on stage name entries in the first name field as well, because that data is not accurate also. But the rules tell us to put it in the first name field only (by the way, I don't want that to change. That rule makes sense). The same rules don't forbid us putting a single name (whether it's a first, middle, last or stage name) in the first name field. No, it isn't even possible to put it in any other field than the first name field. You're advocating a non-existing name concerning the actual credits as common name, how could that be accurate? | | | | Cor |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
No back peddling at all. You will note I said 'actual credits', plural, not 'actual credit', singular. You didn't seem to understand, so I clarified it for you...not that it matters as there is no rule that allows you to add a name that doesn't exist in the credits. That does not change the fact that the "common name" does NOT have to match the actual credits. That's what you actually said, but keep dancing. If you'd been keeping up, you would know that adding his first name was not one of the two options that I am currently advocating. Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
while I agree with you that #1 is the better choice, there is a third solution, you just don't like it.
Not unless you want to break the Rules.
This from the person who suggested that we use a false common name, which most definately breaks the rules. Like I said, you really should try to keep up with the discussion. That is no longer what I am proposing. Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quote:
I really am surprised that you would advocate putting known wrong data in the first name field deliberately.
It is the only option we have due to the program limitations. I don't like it but, as I said earlier, it is more correct than your suggestion. It is not the only option. Ken simply needs to correct the rule. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Well, for one, this from the "Voting Rules" section:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate...
Entering the last name into the first name field is not accurate. A "no" vote is required.
In that reasoning I must vote no on stage name entries in the first name field as well, because that data is not accurate also. But the rules tell us to put it in the first name field only (by the way, I don't want that to change. That rule makes sense). The same rules don't forbid us putting a single name (whether it's a first, middle, last or stage name) in the first name field. No, it isn't even possible to put it in any other field than the first name field. You're advocating a non-existing name concerning the actual credits as common name, how could that be accurate? If the rules instruct us to put stage names in the first name field, then entering a stage name in the first name field is "accurate" for the purposes of DVDP. No where do the Rules instruct us to enter someone's last name in the first name field, therefore, doing so is not accurate. Seems pretty straight forward to me. As has been pointed out, there are lots of examples of the "Common name" not matching the CLT. Ken has implemented filters which make that impossible in some cases. In this instance, the only credit this guy has is "Wing Comdr. Gibson", therefore THAT should be his "common name". But, per the current rules, that's not going to happen. Ken has corrupted his own system by implementing these filters and this most recent rule change. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Well, for one, this from the "Voting Rules" section:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate...
Entering the last name into the first name field is not accurate. A "no" vote is required.
In that reasoning I must vote no on stage name entries in the first name field as well, because that data is not accurate also. But the rules tell us to put it in the first name field only (by the way, I don't want that to change. That rule makes sense). The same rules don't forbid us putting a single name (whether it's a first, middle, last or stage name) in the first name field. No, it isn't even possible to put it in any other field than the first name field. You're advocating a non-existing name concerning the actual credits as common name, how could that be accurate?
If the rules instruct us to put stage names in the first name field, then entering a stage name in the first name field is "accurate" for the purposes of DVDP.
No where do the Rules instruct us to enter someone's last name in the first name field, therefore, doing so is not accurate.
Seems pretty straight forward to me. What you are saying is inaccurate also. There's no movie, series or whatever DVD release in which Gibson is credited as Guy Gibson... So I have to vote no on that entry as well... Of course I think Guy Gibson is much more plausible, but that's definitely not within the rules. Quote:
list names exactly as they are in the credits. -> Wing Comdr. Gibson and Quote:
Military rank/affiliation or other honorifics should be included in the 'Credited As' field. Example: a credit of "Cpl. John Smith, USMC" should be entered as First Name: "John", Last Name "Smith", Credited As "Cpl. John Smith, USMC" That leaves: Gibson Due to the software limitations the only option now is adding the last name in the first name field. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Well, for one, this from the "Voting Rules" section:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
If a user is following the Contribution Rules and his/her data is accurate...
Entering the last name into the first name field is not accurate. A "no" vote is required.
In that reasoning I must vote no on stage name entries in the first name field as well, because that data is not accurate also. But the rules tell us to put it in the first name field only (by the way, I don't want that to change. That rule makes sense). The same rules don't forbid us putting a single name (whether it's a first, middle, last or stage name) in the first name field. No, it isn't even possible to put it in any other field than the first name field. You're advocating a non-existing name concerning the actual credits as common name, how could that be accurate?
If the rules instruct us to put stage names in the first name field, then entering a stage name in the first name field is "accurate" for the purposes of DVDP.
No where do the Rules instruct us to enter someone's last name in the first name field, therefore, doing so is not accurate.
Seems pretty straight forward to me.
What you are saying is inaccurate also. There's no movie, series or whatever DVD release in which Gibson is credited as Guy Gibson... So I have to vote no on that entry as well... You need to keep up as well. That was not one of the two options that I most recently proposed. | | | | Hal |
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