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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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| Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 2,337 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
Or you are only allowed to enter data from rigidly specified sources, which then makes additional documentation obsolete. ...and that is exactly my point and the way that most databases work. For example in DVDP land we are only allowed to take Cast & Crew from credits. Therefore there isn't any point to "document" the source for that data everytime. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,337 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Winston Smith: Quote:
Since we are discussing imdb, let's remember that there have been cases where their users have inserted themselves I various places in cast or crew I believe that this isn't one of those cases since the source for another Alfred is credits taken by Huskersports. It's quite easy to figure that one out. Something like this. | | | | Last edited: by Kulju |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
Always keep in mind basic rule # 16 for databases:
Undocumented data is invalid data In the case of inivelos, there are many cases in which documented data is invalid data.  But seriously, I wonder how many people actually read the forums or gain any insight from these types of "educational" threads. A short pm is an effective way to make sure they become aware of the problem. This program alerts us to when a pm has been read so we know the message has been received. If I don't get a response and the contribution remains unchanged after a couple of days,, then a "no" vote with a short explanation is all that is needed to let the voters and the screeners of the potential invalid contributions. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Before this gets out of hand, and to add just a little fuel to the fire, let me throw in my parser point of view. While this section is titled "Voting Rules", to quote Captain Barbossa, they are "more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." Let me explain. First, rules are specific in nature...do this, don't do that. These 'rules' don't say, "voting "Yes" to a contribution which violates these Contribution Rules is not allowed," they say it should be avoided. Rules must be followed, period. Telling us to avoid doing something isn't a rule. I'm sorry, but it isn't, it is a guideline. Second, Ken has stated that we are allowed to vote 'no' to, as an example, R1 profiles created using an R2 disc...even if the data is correct and documented. How is this possible if the rules tell us we can't? Answer, the rules don't tell us we can't. Just my six pence.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 11, 2007 |  Posts: 249 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kulju: Quote:
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
Or you are only allowed to enter data from rigidly specified sources, which then makes additional documentation obsolete.
...and that is exactly my point and the way that most databases work.
For example in DVDP land we are only allowed to take Cast & Crew from credits. Therefore there isn't any point to "document" the source for that data everytime. That is true for all profiles that have cast and crew credits. It is not true for profiles that have partial or no credits, where the rules tell us we can use other sources like an official website, subtitles on the disc, etc. Therefore there is a reason to document sources, and even if that was not the case; it is in the rules. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 |  Posts: 1,982 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kulju: Quote:
It's quite easy to figure that one out. Something like this. First time I saw Google do this  At least any idiot can do this research doing nothing  Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Before this gets out of hand I think it did already  | | | | Last edited: by Jimmy S |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 2,337 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting apltm: Quote:
It is not true for profiles that have partial or no credits, where the rules tell us we can use other sources like an official website, subtitles on the disc, etc. Can you show me where to find this from the rules. I cannot find that... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 5,494 |
| | Posted: | | | | quite impressive ... oh but all the birthyear are for that the 1899 Hitchcock.. But what 1993 film? need some more input .. like screen grabs ... | | | In the 60's, People took Acid to make the world Weird. Now the World is weird and People take Prozac to make it Normal.
Terry |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kulju: Quote:
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
Or you are only allowed to enter data from rigidly specified sources, which then makes additional documentation obsolete.
...and that is exactly my point and the way that most databases work.
For example in DVDP land we are only allowed to take Cast & Crew from credits. Therefore there isn't any point to "document" the source for that data everytime. That is because the source is the documentation / verification in this case. But it's good to see that we basically seem to mean the same and only seem to differ in our interpretation of the word "documentation". For me "documentation" is anything that points to the source of the data in the dataset. To remain in our DVDProfiler-land: - For cast and crew (and several other datafields) we are only allowed to use specified sources so a simple "as credited" usually suffices as documentation. - For BY there are no pre-defined sources in the rules, so to make this data verifiable for the voter (next user of this dataset), a documentation pointing to the source of the contributed information is required. In fact the whole procedure is by far too complicated for me, especially when, as in this case, I can easily verify that there are two persons in our database sharing the same name, but will probably never be able to find a source for the BY of the lesser known Alfred H. So for me (locally only!) I've some time ago decided to use the numbers 9000 + as BY replacement. The first verified person gets a 9000 the next 9001 and so forth. Personally I think that having to document two things (BY needed AND BY) for one dataset is asked a bit too much. But as long as the rules (guidelines) tell us to do exactly this ... | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kulju: Quote:
Quoting apltm:
Quote:
It is not true for profiles that have partial or no credits, where the rules tell us we can use other sources like an official website, subtitles on the disc, etc.
Can you show me where to find this from the rules. I cannot find that... I think he is refering to these rules: If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits. If there are no credits, the film's official site may be used as a source, as long as the inclusion does not violate the site's published policy (if any). If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use the film itself, or another source to identify the role. However, mass copy from a third party commercial database which violates their stated usage license is not allowed. In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,550 |
| | Posted: | | | | I didn't think a screen grab was necessary for the Love, Cheat and Steal Alfred Hitchcock, since the director Alfred Hitchcock died 13 years before this movie came out. | | | My one wish for the DVD Profiler online database: Ban or remove the disc-level profiles of TV season sets. It completely screws up/inflates the CLT.
FACT: Imdb is WRONG 70% of the time! Misspelled cast, incomplete cast, wrong cast/crew roles. So for those who want DVD Profiler to be "as perfect as Imdb", good luck with that.
Stop adding UNIT crew! They're invalid credits. Stop it! | | | | Last edited: by huskersports |
| | Registered: May 11, 2007 | | Posts: 249 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Kulju:
Quote:
Quoting apltm:
Quote:
It is not true for profiles that have partial or no credits, where the rules tell us we can use other sources like an official website, subtitles on the disc, etc.
Can you show me where to find this from the rules. I cannot find that...
I think he is refering to these rules:
If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits.
If there are no credits, the film's official site may be used as a source, as long as the inclusion does not violate the site's published policy (if any).
If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use the film itself, or another source to identify the role. However, mass copy from a third party commercial database which violates their stated usage license is not allowed. In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited. Indeed I was, thanks Martian. |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 1,982 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting huskersports: Quote:
I didn't think a screen grab was necessary for the Love, Cheat and Steal Alfred Hitchcock, since the director Alfred Hitchcock died 13 years before this movie came out. It isn't. Terry just act strangely for God knows why... Unless they used the Hitchcock corpse in the movie any reasonable person understand it isn't the same actor. Anyway why would you lied on this as you are usually reliable on your profiling works... |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
There are?
I'm not aware of any productive database that is working with undocumented / unverifiable data, at least none that is supposed to contain more or less useful data.
Of course the documentation doesn't necessarily have to be right next to the datafield but may be in an accompanying folder in your filing cabinet. Or you are only allowed to enter data from rigidly specified sources, which then makes additional documentation obsolete.
But all data always and ever has to be verifiable for the next user working with this dataset. If not, where would be the use of having a database? Yes, there are. In another life as a Production Controller, I entered data into one of, if not the largest military database in the US and never, not once, was I asked to provide a single piece of documentation yet that data was considered valid by every squadron in the country. Maybe they weren't aware of rule #16...either that or they thought I was extremely trustworthy. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: October 30, 2011 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 1,870 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Lewis_Prothero:
Quote:
There are?
I'm not aware of any productive database that is working with undocumented / unverifiable data, at least none that is supposed to contain more or less useful data.
Of course the documentation doesn't necessarily have to be right next to the datafield but may be in an accompanying folder in your filing cabinet. Or you are only allowed to enter data from rigidly specified sources, which then makes additional documentation obsolete.
But all data always and ever has to be verifiable for the next user working with this dataset. If not, where would be the use of having a database?
Yes, there are. In another life as a Production Controller, I entered data into one of, if not the largest military database in the US and never, not once, was I asked to provide a single piece of documentation yet that data was considered valid by every squadron in the country. Maybe they weren't aware of rule #16...either that or they thought I was extremely trustworthy. Apples and oranges.... in cases like this their data validation was a combination of your training and possibly application checks. Validation of the integrity of data can be more encompassing than having a source. It all depends on the training, the application, the job, the type of data and it's volatility. The situation we are in is where an largely untrained user community can input data into an online database. So the contributions do need to be screened. Documenting a source of how you did the work is helping the screeners do their jobs to ensure that only good data goes into the database. THe voters need that information as well. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Scooter1836: Quote:
Apples and oranges....
in cases like this their data validation was a combination of your training and possibly application checks.
Validation of the integrity of data can be more encompassing than having a source. It all depends on the training, the application, the job, the type of data and it's volatility. No doubt, but LP mentioned 'Rule #16 and made a blanket statement..."I'm not aware of any productive database that is working with undocumented / unverifiable data, at least none that is supposed to contain more or less useful data." The database I worked with contained tons of undocumented / unverifiable data that was completely valid and quite useful to a lot of people, so his statement, and rule #16, weren't quite accurate. We are often told that there are rules that apply to all databases, but experience with several tell me that isn't the case. Database designers may want there to be blanket rules, but reality doesn't always comply. That's all I am trying to say. Quote:
The situation we are in is where an largely untrained user community can input data into an online database. So the contributions do need to be screened. Documenting a source of how you did the work is helping the screeners do their jobs to ensure that only good data goes into the database. THe voters need that information as well. I don't disagree. Where you lose me...not you specifically, but you in general...is when you say the rules require us to vote 'no' on correct data simply because it wasn't documented properly. As I explained earlier, I don't believe that is the case and I have no problem voting 'yes' if I know the data is correct. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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