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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Puppeteers |
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| Author |
Message |
  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,723 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
I think character puppetteers vs effects puppetteers isn't a random bit of formatting. Granted, but I didn't say that. I was merely talking about where exacty these puppeteers appear in the credits - that really shouldn't matter. We should either decide to track puppeteers, or we should decide not to, but including them in one profile and leaving them off in the next one, while they did the exact same job, seems like the worst of all possible options. Either we track puppeteers, or we don't. The subsequent question whether "effects puppeteers" should be included as well is a different question altogether, and one I really don't have an opinion on. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,723 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Woola: Quote:
You arguer about the importance of Puppeteers Not true. As always: please try reading someone's post before you start typing. Personally, I have no particular interest in puppeteers, and I'd be perfectly happy with a blanket rule that said: "no puppeteers". However, judging from the rules, that is clearly not what Ken wants, and you won't hear me complaining. But you're suddenly interpreting the fact that I don't whine about it as if I'm strongly in favour of them. Well, I'm not. I just said that above anything else, I want to be consistent. So that's what I do: if the rules tell me to track puppeteers, I'll track the puppeteers. It's as simple as that. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Woola:
Quote:
You arguer about the importance of Puppeteers
Not true. As always: please try reading someone's post before you start typing. Personally, I have no particular interest in puppeteers, and I'd be perfectly happy with a blanket rule that said: "no puppeteers". However, judging from the rules, that is clearly not what Ken wants, and you won't hear me complaining. But you're suddenly interpreting the fact that I don't whine about it as if I'm strongly in favour of them. Well, I'm not. I just said that above anything else, I want to be consistent. So that's what I do: if the rules tell me to track puppeteers, I'll track the puppeteers. It's as simple as that. But they don't. That's the point, there are times when they might be suitably tracked and others when they are not and the Rules are very clear in making that determination. Cast is is together and in a SINGLE section, not separated and scattered all over the Credit list. There is nowhere that ken says in the Rules to track Puppeters no matter what and as I said in this instance they simply do not meet the criteria. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,723 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Woola: Quote:
Cast is is together and in a SINGLE section, not separated and scattered all over the Credit list. Other have already addressed that earlier in this thread - I'm not about to do it all over again. I'm merely pointing out that your stance simply doesn't make sense, as it renders the data useless. I understand it works for you if you're collecting data for no other purpose than collecting data, but for those of us who are genuinly interested in puppeteers, your stance is nothing less than a slap in the face: if someone's interested in tracking puppeteers, that someone will want to know on which films in his collection they worked. Basing whether to enter them or not on a random bit of formatting just doesn't work: the end result is entirely meaningless. It's data all right, but of no use to anyone. In that case, we're really better off banning any puppeteers from the database completely. Again: either we track them, or we don't. But not "if... then". |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am going to ask a question that has been gnawing at me since I first read Hal's take on the rules...has anybody ever seen puppeteers listed anywhere other than the end credits? I don't think I ever had. Like most crew members, puppeteers are always listed in the end credits. Since they are always listed there, why would we need a rule that tells us we can enter them if they are listed there? I am sorry, but it just doesn't make any sense to me.
That being said, I agree with T!M. If we are going to track them, we should always track them. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I am going to ask a question that has been gnawing at me since I first read Hal's take on the rules...has anybody ever seen puppeteers listed anywhere other than the end credits? /blockquote]
I'm pretty sure on muppets films. I'm at work and can't check at the moment, though. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | You know I don not like if..thens any better than you. But that is what we have built-in in this case, and i will say I do not support some sort of statement which allows us to supersede the filmmakers, we do NOT know more than they. Had they intended for them to be cast they would have listed them WITH the cast as many films do. I do not support data for it;s own sake as some seem to do, it has to have context and definition and this has neither as the data is OUTSIDE of the STANDARD cast list, as defined by the Rules.<shrugs>
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: September 18, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,650 |
| | Posted: | | | | This thread could be answered quickly with an answer from Ken...  Again, it's completely down to rule interpretation IMO. They are too messy and contradictive. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Ace_of_Sevens: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I am going to ask a question that has been gnawing at me since I first read Hal's take on the rules...has anybody ever seen puppeteers listed anywhere other than the end credits?
I'm pretty sure on muppets films. I'm at work and can't check at the moment, though. Muppets aren't quite the same thing as the muppet puppeteers, that are credited in the opening credits, are also the voice actors. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Sam:
The only contradiction I see is an invented one, to simply ignore the rule.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | If the intent was to include them only if they are in the cast list, why doesn't it say list them only if they are included in the cast list? | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,723 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Woola: Quote:
i will say I do not support some sort of statement which allows us to supersede the filmmakers, we do NOT know more than they. I understand how you must think that sounds absolutely lovely, but unfortunately it's just a hollow phrase. Of course we "know more than the filmmakers" - for a start, that's the very basis of our entire "credited as" system... Back on topic: just today, I audited a film which lists part of the cast at the start of the end credits, then loads and loads of crew, and then an additional batch of cast members. I've checked on other profiles, and there's not a single DVD Profiler user who doesn't instantly understand that they're part of the cast as well. Yet by your standard, you could actually argue that they're "OUTSIDE of the STANDARD cast list, as defined by the Rules", and should be left out. Except they shouldn't - and everyone intuitively understand that, even without five pages of bickering. I know how you like things to be black and white, but that's just not how the real world works, Skip. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
If the intent was to include them only if they are in the cast list, why doesn't it say list them only of they are included in the cast list? By the same token, if the intent was to include them anytime they were in the end credits, why doesn't it say just list them? Why include the part that says, "if they are included?" | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Because Hal, it was not necessaru with the main definition
For the purposes of this section we define "standard" film credits as those where all credited actors involved are listed together in a single section at the end of the film - defined here as the "end credits". The section details both the actor’s Name and the Role that they played in the film. The credits may be listed "in order of appearance", "alphabetical order" or in an order of importance decided by the filmmakers. Some actors may be credited a second time in either credits at either the opening or close of the film.
Your idea Hal, completely negates the primary Rule as it relates to cast and if you were correct then there would be NO RULE fopr cast and you would be quite free to use your dartboard or your magic 8 Ball.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Woola:
Quote:
i will say I do not support some sort of statement which allows us to supersede the filmmakers, we do NOT know more than they.
I understand how you must think that sounds absolutely lovely, but unfortunately it's just a hollow phrase. Of course we "know more than the filmmakers" - for a start, that's the very basis of our entire "credited as" system...
Back on topic: just today, I audited a film which lists part of the cast at the start of the end credits, then loads and loads of crew, and then an additional batch of cast members. I've checked on other profiles, and there's not a single DVD Profiler user who doesn't instantly understand that they're part of the cast as well. Yet by your standard, you could actually argue that they're "OUTSIDE of the STANDARD cast list, as defined by the Rules", and should be left out. Except they shouldn't - and everyone intuitively understand that, even without five pages of bickering. I know how you like things to be black and white, but that's just not how the real world works, Skip. Really what Credits have you worked on, Tim. that is just arrogant beyond all belief, I suppose you also believe you know more about a name that the person who it belongs to as well.  Incredible. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
If the intent was to include them only if they are in the cast list, why doesn't it say list them only of they are included in the cast list?
By the same token, if the intent was to include them anytime they were in the end credits, why doesn't it say just list them? Why include the part that says, "if they are included?" You answered that yourself. It excludes any listed in the opening credits. | | | | Hal |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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