Skip,

Regarding PM's: First of all, yes, I was the first to contact you by PM to ask you why exactly the submission got a no vote from you, because the submission system doesn’t allow for back- and forth messaging. Upon this initial PM I go bombarded by three consecutive PM’s from you, with the tone rather smug and pushy. This is why I suggested you start posting in the thread I had created to discuss the matter, so other users can read your messages (and the undertone they carry) as well. This is also the reason I PM blocked you, coupled to your last smug, borderline threatening PM stating : “Now that Ken has ruled the same as I did, will you finally start listending to me or …”. That was totally uncalled for, the matter being resolved in the thread.

Regarding this thread: I did not create it to garner support, but to genuinely ask the community how to deal with such matters, as they are rather rare and not clearly defined in the rules. The way I understood the rules was that it was OK to add the tracks, hence my last sentence of my opening post:
“Taken the above into account, I cannot understand why the Japanese tracks are refused yet the Italian, French, Portugese and Spanish are included.    Can someone please clarify this, preferably by quoting which part of the rules applies here. Thanks in advance.”
I was seeking an explanation and If it came over as looking for ‘support’, then I’d like to clarify this was not my intent.

As for the civility matter: You claim I pretend to be civil but am not and that you're the more civilized party between the both of us. I won't dignify that with and answer safe for stating the fact that none of my forum posts have been moderated so far while some of yours have been. I think that speaks for itself.

You did indeed try to help with a suggestion, namely put the track in the Easter Eggs. It’s a valid suggestion but unfortunately it causes a problem for some users, namely those that like to filter on Audio tracks, like me and Surfeur. My wife is Japanese and when buying Blu-rays, it is not uncommon for us to put the same movie of various localities in our wishlist and filter on the audio and subtitles to see which contain Japanese. This is why we bought the UK Blu-ray of the Dark Knight over the US one. Personally, I would gladly meet you half way and use a combination of both as follows:
Add the audio and subtitles tracks + add an explanation in the Easter Eggs on how to access them.
Unfortunately, that’s not OK by you because as is always the case with you: it’s either your way (and to the letter in fact) or the highway. Never have I seen you accept another user’s ideas that might be better than yours. You always stick to your initial proposal and just can’t see that some of your suggestions simple don’t offer a solution for other users. As such, I had to chuckle a bit when I  read in your post you try to understand the other side.

Finally, I’d like to note that from the very first post I made in the contribution section, you’ve been on my case and on my back, sometimes openly attacking, sometimes just coming over preachy. You’ve never tried to understand, really understand, my questions; you’ve always criticized my suggestions and ideas and you’ve never proposed solutions that help me or even tried to meet me half way. From the minute I came on board, you’ve made me feel unwelcome and the feeling  never subsided, as we can see in this thread:
http://www.invelos.com/Forums.aspx?task=viewtopic&topicID=349767&PageNum=1

You’ve constantly tried to torpedo every single suggestion I’ve made for future updates of the rules and software and now even go as far as to vote on a submission of a disc you don’t even own (nor the equipment to play it, by the way), having the balls to say my data is erroneous.

This is just the final drop in the bucket and unlike your little baby tantrum where you stay away for two days and sneak back in through the back door. I’m definitively done as long as Invelos keeps protecting users like you who bully others into accepting their ideas to the letter. This is just my personal opinion, but I believe over the past few months, Invelos has lost a lot of good contributors and people who were willing to put effort in the future development of the database and software, all because of a tiny group of users like you who keep throwing their weight around. The only thing I’ll still submit is my paper on Japanese Romanization when it’s done, because I promised to do so to other users. No doubt you’ll have a field day bombarding it and tearing it to shreds, but I’ve come to the point where I just don’t care anymore.

That's the last I have to say on all these matters. It's just not worth my time anymore.

So, now you have one less person polluting the database. Congratulations, you're one step closer to your own private online database.

I hope you’re proud of yourself.

Quoting Ken Cole:

Quote:
Quoting Forget_the_Rest:

Quote:
Ken, here I think the problem was that it IS an obvious menu option. It just happens that the option only shows dependent on the players language settings.

Yes, and if the profile locality's standard language is the one that shows the track, it should be included as a regular audio track.

Ken, may I ask for one further bit of clarification? Over here in R2 land, the following situation is not uncommon (and has not been for many years already - goblinsdoitall already referred to it earlier in this thread): you pop in the DVD and the first thing that pops up is a menu asking you to choose a language for the DVD's standard menu. Depending on which language you choose (for the MENU, that is), you will get different options for selection of audio tracks and/or subtitles.

In some cases the choice for a menu language will affect your options to access audio tracks and subtitles through your player's Audio and Subtitle buttons, in other cases it won't and you can still access everything.

Do we enter all languages/subtitles on disc (based on the fact that there's no need to change the player's default settings to be able to access them) or do we merely enter the languages and subtitles that are presented to us if we choose the language of the locality in question, and put the rest in Easter Eggs? Or would that depend on what I wrote in my previous paragraph, i.e. whether the other languages and subtitles can still be accessed through the DVD player's Audio and Subitlte buttons?

Just for the record: so far, I've been doing the first in my contributions, and I believe many R2 users have been doing the same, judging by what I see in R2 profiles.

@ Taro:
Really sorry to see you leave. In the relatively short time I've seen you participate in these forums, I've seen you launch many constructive and valuable ideas for solutions to DVDP issues, especially the many issues that still exist with names and name linking. Take care!

Quoting dee1959jay:

Quote:
Quoting Ken Cole:

Quote:
Quoting Forget_the_Rest:

Quote:
Ken, here I think the problem was that it IS an obvious menu option. It just happens that the option only shows dependent on the players language settings.

Yes, and if the profile locality's standard language is the one that shows the track, it should be included as a regular audio track.

Ken, may I ask for one further bit of clarification? Over here in R2 land, the following situation is not uncommon (and has not been for many years already - goblinsdoitall already referred to it earlier in this thread): you pop in the DVD and the first thing that pops up is a menu asking you to choose a language for the DVD's standard menu. Depending on which language you choose (for the MENU, that is), you will get different options for selection of audio tracks and/or subtitles.

In some cases the choice for a menu language will affect your options to access audio tracks and subtitles through your player's Audio and Subtitle buttons, in other cases it won't and you can still access everything.

Do we enter all languages/subtitles on disc (based on the fact that there's no need to change the player's default settings to be able to access them) or do we merely enter the languages and subtitles that are presented to us if we choose the language of the locality in question, and put the rest in Easter Eggs? Or would that depend on what I wrote in my previous paragraph, i.e. whether the other languages and subtitles can still be accessed through the DVD player's Audio and Subitlte buttons?

Just for the record: so far, I've been doing the first in my contributions, and I believe many R2 users have been doing the same, judging by what I see in R2 profiles.

Oh I hadn't thought of those. An example that I remember was the UK release of Total Recall on Blu-ray (5055201803795). If you select English when you first put the disc in you get English audio. If you select one of the other countries you'll get other options. No changing of the player settings is required, it's purely an option you get when first loading the disc & it is possible to get back to it again but it's before the disc menu.

Edit: Just to add, I've been adding ALL languages on the disc to the audio section.

This wouldn't work for multilingual localities (Belgium and Switzerland come to mind), except if you were to verify the DVD menus matching ALL the locality's languages. Then you could say e.g. for a Swiss profile, only include the languages and subtitles that are accessible if you choose either German, French or Italian as your DVD menu language, but not the other languages and subtitles that are present on disc.
It would however be pretty hard to incorporate this into the rules in a comprehensible and fool-proof way... 

There are many circumstances where the fork in the road (for special features and audio tracks)  is not the language of the locality, but whether you choose widescreen/full screen or theatrical/unrated/extended from an up-front menu that is not the main menu.

The most recent one I encountered is Conquest of the Planet of the Apes and Battle for the Planet of the Apes. For those, they have a start-up menu where you choose the cut you want to see. From there, you go to the main menu. From the setup on the extended or unrated editions, you can select an isolated music track which is not available on the theatrical version.

Skip,

I see you just can't give it a rest. I agree with your ultimate answer being to included the track with some sort of footnote. I don't have a problem with that.

However, I see you seem to be speaking for all users of the online database when stating that being able to filter on those languages and subtitles doesn't belong in the online database. If I'm the online one who thinks it's useful, then you would be right that it belongs in my local database only. However, can you be sure that all users agree with you? The voting of my submission seems to indicate the contrary (3:1 ratio of users want this in the online).

But no matter, Ken has ruled and I've already said several pages back that I accept his ruling. I see you still find it necessary to push your point even further down our collective throats so by all means, go ahead.

You saying that I am the one forcing my views on others is about the most hypocritical thing I've read in these forums. Even after I have yielded and let it go, you still feel the necessity to keep on pushing your idea.

So please, continue forcing the issue some more. It'll only prove my point that you are incapable of putting yourself in the shoes of others or engage in a rational, civilized discussion without forcing your views on others.

You have the online all to yourself, Skip, enjoy molding it to your perfect image.

PS: by the way, since you seem to have all the answers, Skip, perhaps you can tackle this one:
A DVD released in Belgium. Depending on the language you choose in a fork menu or the preffered language in your player's settings, you get either the Dutch version or the French version. So here we have a disc which also contains "hidden" languages: same UPC, same locality.
How do you differentiate between those? Which tracks do you include?
Please enlightening us and share your wisdom with us all.

I already gave my best answer on the fork in the road, Taro. I think it will affect the profile based upon your locality. I can understand such forks, especially in R2 where there are so many languages so close together.

BTW I don't fancy myself as speaking for all users, but i do try and keep the larger community in my mind when I am formulating answers. We had excatly these type discussions back in the development days and many times we tried hard to simplify  something that may be fairly complex in reality simply to try and make it as simple as possible for the base community who may or may NOT possess the level of expertise that some have.

Skip

Quoting Dr Pavlov:

Quote:
I already gave my best answer on the fork in the road, Taro. I think it will affect the profile based upon your locality. I can understand such forks, especially in R2 where there are so many languages so close together.

Skip

Most likely my "depth of misunderstanding" is getting in the way, but I still don't see how that solves the issue at hand:
My player is set to French then the French subs are available. My player is set to Dutch then the Dutch subtitles are available. In both instances, the locality as well as the UPC are the same. So which tracks do I submit then? Or do I make two profiles with the exact same UPC and locality, both with a different set of subtitles? Is such a thing even possible?

I don't have your advanced level of intelligence, so I can't see the answer for such issues ...