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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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 Fifth Element (Locked) |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I agree, Unicus.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,321 |
| | Posted: | | | | First of all, I was pleased to discover that I actually voted Neutral on this one originally.  I saw the contribution at work and have no way to verify the data on my own either here or at home. As to the rules, I've read a lot of good arguments on both sides. In the end I think everyone has pointed out to me that while the rules are full of good intentions, they're far from perfect. All the rule quoting done here has just shown me how many inconsistencies exist and that it's extremely simple to prove your point just by quoting one rule or another. Thus I'm going to have to go outside the box on this one and use a little common sense. The user didn't provide good notes. That's obvious. Yet several Yes votes point out that the data actually is correct. Since I value having good data over good notes, I'm going to change my vote to Yes. Sorry in advance to the No crowd, but I don't see any value in throwing out good data simply because it wasn't presented correctly (although it was subsequently verified by multiple sources). | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here.
Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | None of the 'yes' votes had sources when I voted...not that it matters as I don't vote based on other people's votes. Beyond that, it is up to the screeners to decide whether or not they will accept the data. My job, at least in my opinion, is to cast my vote for the contribution, as a whole, based my understanding of the rules. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,321 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
My job, at least in my opinion, is to cast my vote for the contribution, as a whole, based my understanding of the rules.  I agree 100%. The problem in my view is that it's very easy to twist the rules or even have two different rules contradict each other. So I think it's possible for 2 people to cast different votes while both believing they're following the rules. I can see and understand why each group voted the way they did on this one and see and understand the rules that back up their position. In my opinion, this mess is more a fault of the rules than anything else. It seems to me things need to be cleaned up a little to make things clearer. Just because they're "rules" and Ken has blessed them doesn't mean they're perfect. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here.
Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mark Harrison: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
My job, at least in my opinion, is to cast my vote for the contribution, as a whole, based my understanding of the rules.
I agree 100%. The problem in my view is that it's very easy to twist the rules or even have two different rules contradict each other. So I think it's possible for 2 people to cast different votes while both believing they're following the rules.
I can see and understand why each group voted the way they did on this one and see and understand the rules that back up their position. In my opinion, this mess is more a fault of the rules than anything else. It seems to me things need to be cleaned up a little to make things clearer. Just because they're "rules" and Ken has blessed them doesn't mean they're perfect. Well put, couldn't have said it better |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,029 |
| | Posted: | | | | What's with all the sudden agreement?  For the record: while I argued on the side of the Yes votes, I never had a problem with the No votes either, just with the way this was brought to the forum. | | | | Matthias |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Mark Harrison: Quote:
Quoting Unicus69:
Quote:
My job, at least in my opinion, is to cast my vote for the contribution, as a whole, based my understanding of the rules.
I agree 100%. The problem in my view is that it's very easy to twist the rules or even have two different rules contradict each other. So I think it's possible for 2 people to cast different votes while both believing they're following the rules.
I can see and understand why each group voted the way they did on this one and see and understand the rules that back up their position. In my opinion, this mess is more a fault of the rules than anything else. It seems to me things need to be cleaned up a little to make things clearer. Just because they're "rules" and Ken has blessed them doesn't mean they're perfect. No argument from me. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Mark:
Most of the inconsistencies i see are in the user interpretation side. Allow me to cite two examples One being the Original topic of this thread which was a CHANGE to exiting data, which should be sourced per the Rules, though a particular user (nameless) took another interpretation that you need not source the data. But on the other hand this same user adopted a totally opposite opinion when it came to removal (change of existing data) of undocumented (uncredited) Cast members which erroneously copied from an existing OLD Profile, his/her stance was that once the data was in the database if it was to be removed it had to documented. This is totally inconsistent with his stance re:the Aspect ratio which he/she says does not haver to be sourced despite the FACT that the Rules call for sourcves on numerous ocassions including on the Contribution Page itself,
This particular user also took a stance completely opposite of the rules, while claiming to follow them, in a case involving an SRP change of .01, despite a CLEAR prohibition to do so in the Rules.
In short his/her interpretations are completely inconsistent and totally dependent upon whatever agenda he/she is trying to achieve. These are only two examples of such inconsistencies, I could go on and on and on.
The Rules are not perfect and never will be. The laws of any given coun try are also never perfect and never will be, and for any citizen who has enough determination to skirt any given law, there is always a way to do it. The Rules were merely designed to try and develop a system so that all users were operating from the same sheet of paper for Contributions. As opposed to the bad old days when EVERY user had his own sheet of paper and titles were updated, re-updated, re-re-updated ad infinitum as users battled over various aspects of any given title including how to sort titles, the ping-pong battles were bizarre beyond all rationality and the Online was quite literally of little use to any of us. For all the weaknesses which one will ALWAYS be able to find in a set, especially if they are determined to hunt those weaknesses down for exploitation, they have been largely successful at achieving the objective a all users using the same page, and then they can customize their own data in any way they wish.
Skip
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,480 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
though a particular user (nameless) took another interpretation that you need not source the data. But on the other hand this same user adopted a totally opposite opinion when it came to removal (change of existing data) of undocumented (uncredited) Cast members which erroneously copied from an existing OLD Profile, his/her stance was that once the data was in the database if it was to be removed it had to documented. This is totally inconsistent with his stance re:the Aspect ratio which he/she says does not haver to be sourced despite the FACT that the Rules call for sourcves on numerous ocassions including on the Contribution Page itself, Who's the secret namelessly unnamed user, Skip? | | | ...James
"People fake a lot of human interactions, but I feel like I fake them all, and I fake them very well. That’s my burden, I guess." ~ Dexter Morgan |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I ain't talkin'.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 171 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
My job, at least in my opinion, is to cast my vote for the contribution, as a whole, based my understanding of the rules. That's the way I see it too. As I see (and use) the voting process, it is there to identify contributions that are either incorrect or don't follow the rules. The enforcement of those rules belongs to Invelos and their screeners, not us. We are not the rules police, just informants.  |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,321 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Mark:
Most of the inconsistencies i see are in the user interpretation side. Ok, for the sake of argument, let's just say I accept this hypothesis. My answer then is "who cares?" If we simplify things, I see three big scenarios here that could explain why people submit bad data. 1) The rules are inconsistent and contradict each other. This is a clear case where the rules need to be fixed to remove confusion. 2) The rules are written in such a way that it's very easy for multiple people to have multiple interpretations of those rules. Again, the rules should be fixed to remove doubt and confusion so only the most hard-headed users would get the wrong meaning out of them. 3) The users ignores the rules altogether or is just a complete moron. The voting system usually helps in these cases. Nicely worded PMs can also assist. In this specific case, I think the problem is some combination of 1 & 2. I won't try to weigh those two against each other because the solution is the same in both cases. I'm not not going to argue if the user in this case had a problem because of 1 & 2 or if they fall squarely in category 3. Again, it's not important. The real issue here is if the rules were a lot clearer, the end result is that we'd likely see a lot more yes votes or a lot more no votes. The fact that the yes votes and no votes are split so much tells me the solution would should seek is to clarify the rules. The ultimate solution of course is better contributions. Unfortunately, that's not something we can control. There isn't a person in this world who can make someone submit better contribution notes. What we can control however is the rules we have that people use to evaluate that contribution. If those rules were clearer, we wouldn't have a 5 page thread trying to determine if this contribution should be accept or rejected with well respected veterans using the rules to prove things one way or another. The answer would be obvious. Skip, you can't change the contributors. You can try to assist them and educate them. But you can't change them. If you're so passionate about the problems you see, I think your time would be better spent trying to improve the rules so we at least have more solid ground to stand on when we vote. Those rules will never be perfect as you pointed out. But issues like this are a great tool to identify the larger problems. | | | Get the CSVExport and Database Query plug-ins here.
Create fake parent profiles to organize your collection. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Mark: I am aware I can't change users. Those who are determined to skirt the Rules will find a way, those who are determined to create their own interpretation, rightly or wrongly; usually wrongly, will also find a way and will not listen. I can only try to assist and educate, which is what i do, most users are extremely appreciative of what I try to do, some of them I will even help resolve issues on the phone. The appreciative users far outweigh, the toads who are perfectly content to skirt the Rules or apply their own incorrect interpretations with no basis in fact and that make me happy. I just have to keep my eyes peeled for the eye shine.<a little personal humor> Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: December 13, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Lovely put Mark. I'm in total agreement.
And Skip while I most definitely appreciate your passion and willingness to devote so much of your time to the program and its users that doesn't change the fact that it wouldn't be necessary to assist and educate as much if the rules were clearer. Those who are determined to skirt the rules would also have a much harder time in doing so.
You've been around a great deal longer than I have (I'm still a rookie), so call me naive, but I still believe that (at least almost) all of us just want clarity and good data. I'm at a loss why someone would be determined to disregard the rules for the sake of it. After all they can do things their own way locally if they want.
I also think that Ken should jump in a lot sooner in the cases that groups have strong opposite opinions on matters of "contribution-principle". And after that the rules should be modified to incorporate his "ruling" as soon as possible.
Steve |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Posts: 374 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting SCG63: Quote:
Lovely put Mark. I'm in total agreement.
I also think that Ken should jump in a lot sooner in the cases that groups have strong opposite opinions on matters of "contribution-principle". And after that the rules should be modified to incorporate his "ruling" as soon as possible.
Steve Yes he should. |
| | Registered: September 29, 2008 | | Posts: 384 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Dr Pavlov: Quote:
Mark:
I am aware I can't change users. Those who are determined to skirt the Rules will find a way, those who are determined to create their own interpretation, rightly or wrongly; usually wrongly, will also find a way and will not listen.
Skip The problem is the fact that it can be interpreted two different ways doesn't make one way necessarily more right than another. You stating "usually wrongly" is why these kinds of conversations probably get under your skin so much (my assumption). Now I do understand that you were around, and had your hands in the creation of the rules, but that doesn't mean that a new or even another veteran's interpretation is flat out wrong. It's just another's interpretation. (These rules are way too much like the Bible  ) Rather then stating that one's interpretation is flat out wrong, as others have said, to change the rules to clarify one way or the other, the right way to do things. Like others have said, the fact that there are so many of these types of threads and split votes usually means it's time for some editing of the source (and unlike the Bible, we should be able to do this right?  ). So I agree with Mark's very well said post, we do need more clarity in the rules. Far too many areas are only answered through forum posts or even a post made by Ken or Geri from who knows how long ago. An average user isn't going to find these things and is going to go by their interpretation of the rules, as they should. And hopefully by making the rules more specific, this will help elliminate all the frustations some of the users get around here. On a side note, I've requested access to the Contribution Rules forum partly just out of curiousity to see what actually goes on in there. From how often the rules get edited it doesn't seem like it is a very active forum in the least bit. Is there a point to it at all? Guess I'll find out.  | | | | "The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire | | | | Last edited: by Vittra |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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