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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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How dey do dat? |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
As I said... we had our share of disagreements... over several different issues... and Tim never claimed I was "playing the victim." Because you never do that - and it's indeed so much nicer if these arguments can be had without resorting to such tactics. But hey, let's not blow this out of proportion. As I said, I didn't "jump" on, or "chastise" anybody. I just reacted on TheMadMartian's comment that "there is no other way" in a matter-of-factly manner. But then he cries wolf by claiming that I "jumped" on him, and that I "chastised" him - that's what I call "playing the victim", and rightly so, as far as I'm concerned, as neither actually happened. When he chooses to follow that with semi-cryptic comments like "I won't speculate as to the reason, as I am quite sure we all know where that would go", then it's clear that things can only go downhill from there. Entirely his doing, not mine. Again, if no-one had said "there is no other way", I wouldn't have even posted here. But someone did, and so I pointed out that that wasn't entirely true. That's all I did, doesn't even matter who said it, and I'd do it the same way again the next time ayone makes a statement that I think isn't entirely accurate. I was, however, not the one who made things turn sour. If you people enjoy it, then by all means, go ahead and discuss this some more. Have fun, but since there's really nothing to "win" here, I would personally rather focus on something useful instead. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
You jumped on me because I didn't reccomend that option
I most certainly did not. I only took a little bit of an issue with your flat-out statement that "there is no other way." There is, so that is a false statement. Had you not claimed that "there is no other way", I wouldn't have even posted in this thread, but if someone posts something that simply isn't true, I'll correct that. Play the victim all you want, we all know you're very good at that, but that's really all there is to it. There is another way. That other way may be an option that you're not comfortable with, which is perfectly fine and I'm certainly not asking of you that you recommend it - I didn't either; I just acknowledged it's existence - but if someone asks for options and you tell them that "there is no other way", then I will correct you. Once again, since it seems you have selective reading, this is the Contribution Discussion forum. This forum is to "Discuss profile contributions: quality, correctness, and tips." I answer questions based on that fact and, in that context, THERE IS NO OTHER WAY. You may not like that answer, but it is, in fact, the only correct answer for this forum. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Obviously, I disagree. All semantics aside, I would say the objective - certainly my objective - was to provide threadstarter tcremote with an as-complete-as-possible answer to his question. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
I won't... and ain't saying it is right or wrong in this situation. But what I will say...
T!M and I have had our share of disagreements... and can even say we said things we normally wouldn't in posts to each other... but your statement about him here is just not true. As I said... we had our share of disagreements... over several different issues... and Tim never claimed I was "playing the victim."
So no... he does not use it against anybody who is not of his opinion. You are correct, he doesn't. There are some people, however, where he does, and I am one of them. I will also admit to the fact that I have, on occasion, said the same thing to him. I will not go into detail, unless I have to, but let's just say there is history here and there are time when we will rub each other the wrong way...his use of the word 'semantics' above is a good example. He may not intend it as condescending but, because of our history, that is the way I take it. I won't bother responding to his post as he seems to believe he is right, and I am wrong, no matter what I say, so there would be no point...beyond escalating this further. So, at this point, I will bow out of this thread.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Clearly, there are options to entering cast and crew from scratch.
One way is to enter them one by one while viewing the actual film credits. This is the "safest" way to enter them while at the same time avoiding any potential legalities. Although, I suppose it could be argued that we are violating a copyright, since everything contained in the film is actually copyrighted.
Secondly, we can use tools, at our own risk, to copy data from a site such as IMDB. Here, you will run the risk of Amazon suing you for violating their ToS, which clearly forbids this activity, regardless of whether it is for a single page or their entire database. It really doesn't matter. Just like you can't be a little bit pregnant. Personally, I think this risk is way overstated by most who discuss it.
Clearly, BEFORE this data from sites such as IMDB could be contributed, it would have to be verified against the actual film credits and modified accordingly. Once any change is made to it, it is no longer "IMDB" data and now matches the actual film credits, therefore, it is perfectly legitimate to contribute it.
Bottom line is, it is a judgment call on your part as to whether you want to risk prosecution by Amazon (personally, I think the risk of this is infinitesimally low) to use these tools to save you the tedium of typing in each and every credit. On the other hand, verifying, changing, correcting and moving IMDB credits around to match the actual film credits may in some cases actually take longer than entering it manually from the credits one by one. T!M is correct, however, that entering the credits manually from the film is NOT the ONLY option. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | These days I always try to enter from scratch. After posting a list of films I completed cast and crew for in the pinned thread about that topic in this forum, and having Sam come back and say "there were errors in this profile, this profile, this profile and this profile" I checked 'em over, and all the profiles (except one) that had errors in them, I simply updated the info that was already there and ended up missing some corrections to pre-existing errors. From scratch, in my opinion, is the safest way to go. And that way, if an error is made, you know it was you, you know why you made the error, and you know to be more careful next time. I never scrape from IMDB, although to tell the truth, it's looking like a better option everyday!  Linking (which is a very important feature for me) would be SO much improved!! I'm too anal though, so I'm stuck starting from scratch it seems. Once you get the hang of it, unless you have a film that has endless cast or crew, it's really not that bad! | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | I can honestly say that I've never used IMDB as a starting point to enter cast and crew credits. If it's a completely new profile, I prefer to start from scratch, as with IMDB I would have to verify against the actual credits, change the order of appearance and what not. I feel I would end up taking more time than if I had started from scratch.
There are three cases where I copy from an existing profile:
1. when it's a DVD child profile that comes with a Blu-ray: I copy from one to the other and then cross-check. In general these credits are the same are have only very tiny differences
2. when it's a TV series that is out on DVD, I copy from that for the Blu-ray release and again cross-check
3. when a parent profile of a TV series already has the entire cast/crew, I copy that to the child profiles | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Secondly, we can use tools, at our own risk, to copy data from a site such as IMDB. Here, you will run the risk of Amazon suing you for violating their ToS, which clearly forbids this activity, regardless of whether it is for a single page or their entire database. It really doesn't matter. Just like you can't be a little bit pregnant. Personally, I think this risk is way overstated by most who discuss it. To be honest about it, if you are scraping for "personal" use, and keep the information in you local, I don't think amazon would ever come after you. The individual is not the competition. Contribute it to the Online for everybody else to see, then it becomes commercial. This is the competition. I think this is the part that needs to be avoided. And you are right. If you use it as a basis, to avoid all the typing, and go through and verify and correct any error before you contribute, then I think you would be ok. Just remember what I posted earlier Quote:
It isn't a matter of what is or isn't legal. Amazon has a ton of money and lawyers. For them, it is irrelevant if they when or lose. In the end they will still have a ton of money and a smaller company will be broke or close to it.
They abuse the court system to weaken an opponent, not necessarily to win a case. It isn't the individual that I am so much worried about, it is Invelos. Charlie |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
Just remember what I posted earlier
It isn't the individual that I am so much worried about, it is Invelos. This doesn't work as well as you might think. No matter how much money you have, you can't survive a motion to dismiss without a plausible cause of action. |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | only in a truly fair justice system.
Company A (A large company) sues company B (A small Company)
Company A sues company B in district court that Company A feels will be friendly to them.
To start Company "B" hires lawyers (cost money). Company B doesn't typically have the resources to do this.
Now take weeks, if not months to gather evidence, internal investigations, etc etc(cost money)
Let's say 6 months down the road, motion to dismiss. Lets say granted by district court. Now Company A (because it has deep pockets) appeals to Court of Appeals.
Company B must continue to spend money, to defend the appeal in appeals court (which could take months, if not years to finally process. (Remember, this is a civil action and not a criminal action).
You tell me at what point company "B" runs out of resources to fight. For company "A", it is not even a blip on there balance sheet.
As soon as company "B" runs out of resources, company "A" has won.
Is this the way it is supposed to work, no. Is this the way it does work, yes.
Charlie | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | The money thing only works if you go to discovery and try to overwork the legal team. The justice system has its faults, but you can't get anywhere suing someone without a case that at least sounds plausible. Look at Monster Cable's terribly ill-fated attempts to sue much smaller businesses for using "monster" in their name. |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Yes, i can agree with that.
But lets take IMDB vs Invelos.
How hard would it be, to actually move forward on a case that is plausible? I'll bet that you can go through your personal collection, and find stuff that is IMDB scraped or copied, that you retrieved from Invelos DB when you logged the new entry (Unless you have gone through your DVD collection completely).
Monster whole problem was they were trying to sue based upon a common word element.
For the same type of case, look when "Radio Shack" sued "Auto Shack" for name infringement. One sold electronic parts and supplies, the other sold car parts. You don't see "Auto Shack" any more. It is now "Auto Zone". "Auto Zone" dropped the case because Tandy Corp had more money and Auto Zone didn't want to tie up legal funds at the time.
Look at Microsoft vs. Just about any small company (mikerowesoft.com) which would have turned out bad for Mike Rowe had the public not gotten behind him.
For every case that you can show,where the legal system actually worked like it should have, I can show you 5 that abused it for purely business advantage...
As another side, I can probably show you 5 to your 1 where a small business was set up to be be eventually bought by a large business, by doing things that they knew would bring civil action... | | | | Last edited: by CharlieM |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 6,744 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just for clarification: CCE2 was never meant to be used for contribution purposes. Both the readme and several message pop-ups make that unmistakable clear.
It's for local use only and was always meant to be. | | | Karsten
DVD Collectors Online
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| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting DJ Doena: Quote:
Just for clarification: CCE2 was never meant to be used for contribution purposes. Both the readme and several message pop-ups make that unmistakable clear.
It's for local use only and was always meant to be. And realistically, it's not the people that participate in the forums that I worry about. We do get "newbies" that come and ask why, we can't. And that is the ones that ask. How many are still contributing from a copy of any DB that is commercial that we don't know about, that don't ask or only skim the rules. A lot of this system is based upon trust, and we must be diligent to maintain that trust. Charlie |
| | Registered: April 16, 2009 |  Posts: 141 |
| | Posted: | | | | Crikey... ask a simple question! Handbags at dawn then.
Interesting read guys, thanks.
Maybe Invelos could contact the film distributors/studios and invite them to provide entries for all new movies when they release them so we can all get back to our hammocks! | | | | Gonna jump...gonna jump... |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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