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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More abuse of group dividers: song writing credits? |
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Registered: March 18, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,550 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting CubbyUps: Quote: I am now starting to like the use of dividers to denote the songs that the song writers wrote. I think it adds more detail about exactly what song they wrote, especially in films in which more than one original song was written for. Without the dividers the song writers just becomes a long list of names without any context other than that they wrote a song for the movie. Especially if there's a song writer credited for writing more than one song... I too was against this but now see the value in it. |
| Registered: December 27, 2009 | Reputation: | Posts: 5,131 |
| Posted: | | | | I updated a profile a few weeks ago that already had a list of song writers. So I put headers with the songs that they were credited for. A voter caught that 2 of the songs were not originals. They voted no with thier reason. So I removed the song writers and headers and resubmitted. Without a title it's just a couple of names. But in a header with the song title, if it isn't a original someone will catch it. I didn't know they weren't originals. Rap isn't my kind of music. |
| Registered: March 18, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,550 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting ateo357: Quote: I updated a profile a few weeks ago that already had a list of song writers. So I put headers with the songs that they were credited for. A voter caught that 2 of the songs were not originals. They voted no with thier reason. So I removed the song writers and headers and resubmitted. Without a title it's just a couple of names. But in a header with the song title, if it isn't a original someone will catch it. I didn't know they weren't originals. Rap isn't my kind of music. Never thought about it, but that's another good reason. If it's not caught initially, even if it were approved, somebody later on could remove them with detailed notes. |
| Registered: July 16, 2010 | Reputation: | Posts: 527 |
| Posted: | | | | I voted no to this, partly because it doesn’t seem to be in the Rules (written or spirit), but also because it doesn’t go far enough. I’d love to see all the song titles, writers and performers credited for all films, regardless of whether they were written for the movie or not; (although I imagine the latter could easily be indicated to). Although performers are arguably not the primarily ‘creative person’ behind a bit of music, they’re more significant to more people than the writers for many genres, so ought to be included in this case. Music makes a huge contribution to many films.
Then again, music is my number 1 interest!
Paul | | | Do you ever find yourself striving for perfection with an almost worthless attempt at it? Guttermouth "Lemon Water". Also, I include in my Profiler database VHS tapes, audio DVDs, audio books (digital, cassette and CD), video games (digital, DVD and CD) and 'enhanced' CDs with video tracks on them, as well as films and TV I've bought digitally. So I'm an anarchist, deal with it. Just be thankful I don't include most of my records and CDs etc in it too; don't think I haven't been tempted... |
| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,749 |
| Posted: | | | | I voted yes, mostly for the reasons CubbyUps stated. I also have done this when there is more than one song written for the film and I am sure they were written for the film. Even though it's not specifically covered in the rules, it has been accepted by the users and the screeners. IMHO. | | | Marty - Registered July 10, 2004, User since 2002. |
| Registered: October 24, 2008 | Posts: 8 |
| Posted: | | | | Using dividers for song writers is helpful, provides extra info and reduces confusion.
So far as I can see the main objections are
1) It isn't specified as a legitimate use of dividers 2) It might spread to other areas.
My answer is that
1) I don't care. If a work-around works lets use the thing. 2) I can live with that if fans of make-up artists find it useful - bizarre though I find the idea personally. After all I can always deal with that on a local level. |
| Registered: March 14, 2007 | Posts: 1,777 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting TheHumbleOne: Quote: Using dividers for song writers is helpful, provides extra info and reduces confusion.
So far as I can see the main objections are
1) It isn't specified as a legitimate use of dividers 2) It might spread to other areas.
My answer is that
1) I don't care. If a work-around works lets use the thing. 2) I can live with that if fans of make-up artists find it useful - bizarre though I find the idea personally. After all I can always deal with that on a local level. Let's not stop there. Ms. So-and-so's gowns by, etc. If you want dumb, we can certainly accomodate. |
| Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,851 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting mdnitoil: Quote: Let's not stop there. Ms. So-and-so's gowns by, etc. If you want dumb, we can certainly accomodate. It sounds like some people want to use group dividers to solve a "problem" that's more suitable for custom roles. I'm all for updating the program to allow for the contribution of custom roles, but not for using group dividers as a poor "workaround". --------------- |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 6,635 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote: It sounds like some people want to use group dividers to solve a "problem" that's more suitable for custom roles. I'm all for updating the program to allow for the contribution of custom roles, but not for using group dividers as a poor "workaround".
--------------- ^This. This is just another example of trying to shoehorn data into fields that they were not intended for. I think using Song Title dividers is a good idea, but it should be presented to Ken as a new feature for a future release and done properly in the program! | | | Hal |
| Registered: December 14, 2010 | Posts: 90 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting TheHumbleOne: Quote: ... 1) I don't care. If a work-around works lets use the thing. ... I like structure and several good supporting arguments have been presented here, so I'm all for using group dividers to specify song titles, but I don't see how this could ever work, if it's not in the rules. If you'd include them in a (modification) contribution, you'll get No votes which would be completely correct. If you managed to sneak them in as part of a new contribution, you'd get removal contributions later on, which again would be completely correct. Let's try to keep anarchy to the forums only and aim to have the contribution rules amended The legitimate use of group dividers is just a matter of definition, but as of now, the definition in the contribution rules doesn't include song titles. |
| Registered: May 20, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,934 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Ranavalone: Quote: Quoting TheHumbleOne:
Quote: ... 1) I don't care. If a work-around works lets use the thing. ...
I like structure and several good supporting arguments have been presented here, so I'm all for using group dividers to specify song titles, but I don't see how this could ever work, if it's not in the rules.
If you'd include them in a (modification) contribution, you'll get No votes which would be completely correct. If you managed to sneak them in as part of a new contribution, you'd get removal contributions later on, which again would be completely correct.
Let's try to keep anarchy to the forums only and aim to have the contribution rules amended
The legitimate use of group dividers is just a matter of definition, but as of now, the definition in the contribution rules doesn't include song titles. I haven't "sneaked" in 1 contribution. I put all my contributions through the channels just like everybody else. I have contributed a number of profiles with "Song Dividers" already (as have others). They do get yes and no votes, and get approved. I haven't seen one personally, that has gone through to remove them once approved. I don't feel that the rule is as strict as some want, and feel that this is a proper use of "group Dividers" Charlie |
| Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 3,475 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
I have contributed a number of profiles with "Song Dividers" already (as have others). They do get yes and no votes, and get approved. I haven't seen one personally, that has gone through to remove them once approved. Charlie This has been my experience also. Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
...this is a proper use of "group Dividers" Charlie I agree. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Posts: 4,596 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote: Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
I have contributed a number of profiles with "Song Dividers" already (as have others). They do get yes and no votes, and get approved. I haven't seen one personally, that has gone through to remove them once approved. Charlie
This has been my experience also.
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
...this is a proper use of "group Dividers" Charlie
I agree. I strongly disagree. Songs are not a Cast or Crew group or team. There is no mention, anywhere in the rule governing dividers, about songs. Just because the rule doesn't specifially prohibit their inclusion doesn't mean that they are allowed. And, just because a screener is letting them slide doesn't mean it's right either. IMO, this is just another way of shoehorning in credits that aren't currently allowed per the rules. There are proper channels for this. Join The Rule Committee and propose a rule change to include song dividers. Simple. DividersDividers allow the segregation of cast and crew into logical groupings. Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits.• Use Episode dividers for TV show episodes, distinct films, or other logical episodic distinction. Also use episode dividers for full cast division, such as "Japanese Voices". • Use Group dividers to designate cast grouped in the credits such as "Soldiers" or "Additional Cast".• "Cast", "In order of appearance" or other similar headers at the start of the credits should not be entered.• Also use Group dividers for crew teams, included only if the crew meets the other listing requirements.• Groups should be ended with a "Group End" type divider, unless the next entry begins a new group. Do not add a group end divider at the end of the cast, or at the end of a crew section. | | | My WebGenDVD online Collection |
| Registered: December 14, 2010 | Posts: 90 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote: ... I haven't "sneaked" in 1 contribution. I put all my contributions through the channels just like everybody else. ...
Sorry about the sloppy wording, I didn't mean to imply deliberate underhand circumvention of the rules. It just seems that sometimes surprising stuff is getting past the screeners as part of contributions. In my "DVD profiler infancy", I attempted to contribute a few modifications which included song titles, as I had come across other profiles with song titles and thought that it was generally accepted (and not explicitly forbidden in the rules). Got several no votes because of the song titles and I just stopped including them. I wholeheartedly support including song titles in the Music credits, but the topic will probably remain a matter of controversy (in this poll currently No - 51, Yes - 30) until the matter will be explicitly settled in the contribution rules. | | | Last edited: by Ranavalone |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 13,202 |
| Posted: | | | | Quoting Bad Father: Quote: I strongly disagree. Songs are not a Cast or Crew group or team. There is no mention, anywhere in the rule governing dividers, about songs. Just because the rule doesn't specifially prohibit their inclusion doesn't mean that they are allowed. And, just because a screener is letting them slide doesn't mean it's right either. IMO, this is just another way of shoehorning in credits that aren't currently allowed per the rules. There are proper channels for this. Join The Rule Committee and propose a rule change to include song dividers. Simple. While I agree with you, I think it is a losing battle. Those that want the song titles, even though they seem to be in the minority based on the poll results in this thread, seem to be able to get them added to the main database because they believe it is correct to do so. While that doesn't bother me, I am bothered by the fact that they have ignored those poll results. If I think something is correct, based on my understanding of the rules, I will contribute it that way. However, if there is a poll, and my understanding falls on the minority side, I will abide by that poll. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever. There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom. Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand. The Centauri learned this lesson once. We will teach it to them again. Though it take a thousand years, we will be free. - Citizen G'Kar | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation: | Posts: 2,749 |
| Posted: | | | | But, aren't songwriters considered crew? And thus, like any other crew divider, gives us information as to who did what. My 2 pennies. | | | Marty - Registered July 10, 2004, User since 2002. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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