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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
Before this, or I, I guess I should say, goes any further, I just wanted to say something.
I in absolutely no way mean to offend anyone by anything I'm saying. I feel I've gotten a little too involved in this conversation  , and when that happens, sometimes a cooler head is harder to prevail. If I have said anything to offend anyone, or my tone has come across in a less than pleasant manner, my apologies as that was not my intent, I hope everyone knows that. I highly respect the majority of this board, and members that I've been debating with such as Taro, hal9g and No_Name_Needed and the last thing I would want to do is offend anyone.
So again, my apologies if I have!!
 You haven't...so no apology is needed! | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
Quoting synnerman:
Quote:
Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting CharlieM:
Quote:
In all realism, how important is this in the grand scheme of things. Don't we have other things to argue about that would be a better use of our time??
Of course, the impact on you is minimal since you are English speaking and undoubtedly have a vast majority of English DVDs. It's easy for you to decide that it's not important.
 Exactly. It is the same thing I ran into with the parsing of Asian names. Often on this board, whenever a regional problem is brought up, there seems to be the most opinions by the people who are affected the least.
It is not that I am indifferent. I have stated elsewhere that overviews and titles should be entered according to the language of the locality. These we are dealing with everyday language (like the Conversion to mixed case GARCON to Garçon) This I feel is proper.
The only issue that I truly have is dealing with Credit Names. These typically, are carried over from 1 locality to another. These unfortunately cannot be converted in a locality situation. These would need to be converted by the native tongue. So anybody doing profiles for these type of names would need to have a certain knowledge to credit these (I hate the term) "properly". FRANCOIS, depending on who may be Francois or it may be François. Unless you know for sure, you may very well be entering it correctly or not.
And for this minor subsection of Name traits, it cannot be a very large issue over all. I would actually imagine that proper order of Asian names would be a larger problem, but at this time, that isn't even being thought about.
My only point to the statement, is there are larger issues that effect all that really should be addressed.
Charlie I didn't mean that to specifically address you at all, but to address the larger point of what hal9g was saying, in that many of those opposed to what is being proposed rarely run into the problem, while the people who want the change have to deal with this on a regular basis. That's where my comparison with the Asian parsing issue came in. In that case, since no official ruling ever came down, I went and submitted several hundred profiles in what I regarded as the correct format. Not a single one was declined (or, for that matter, only a handful ever received a single no vote). Until Ken/Geri does step in and give an official order, I would tell the users in that locality to make the changes and submit them. If the others in that region agree, it will be voted in. If there are no votes, let the screeners decide. All we have here are 38 pages of opinion and no real way to solve it without official intervention. | | | | Last edited: by synnerman |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Edited for Double Post. | | | | Last edited: by synnerman |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
the number of people who know about this simple, consistent and universal ruling is quite small and most certainly is not 'everyone'. The "generally somewhat silent and large majority" are blissfully ignorant. The same goes for every public ruling and clarification that Ken and/or Gerri has made. Are you seriously saying none of those carry any weight? Or if not, then what's your point? I don't see how this is in any way an argument in this specific debate - you may wel interject these comments into pretty much every discussion... Q: how do we deal with this? A: well, here (link) Ken specifically said to do it like that. You: yeah, but the number of people who know about that is quite small. How does that help, in any way? Certainly, after that exchange, at least one more person does know about it. So I just don't see the point of this comment. Worse, I believe the "generally somewhat silent and large majority" doesn't even bother to read the rules. A portion of them isn't even familiar enough with the English language to understand them, even if they wanted to. Does that affect the validity of the rules as well? Also note that there's a helpful - and pinned - thread called "Collected Statements from Invelos on contribution discussions", where such rulings and clarifications are collected - including the "E=e, É=é" one, of course - meaning they're all readily available to everyone. If you're seriously questioning their validity, I suggest you start by asking Ken to unpin that thread. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
The same goes for every public ruling and clarification that Ken and/or Gerri has made. Are you seriously saying none of those carry any weight? Or if not, then what's your point? Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Outside of our little forum world, those clarifications don't carry any weight. How could they when the majority will never see them? Quote:
I don't see how this is in any way an argument in this specific debate - you may wel interject these comments into pretty much every discussion... Q: how do we deal with this? A: well, here (link) Ken said to do it like that. You: yeah, but the number of people who know about that is quite small. How does that help, in any way? Certainly, after that exchange, at least one more person does now about it. So I just don't see the point of this comment. Worse, I believe the "generally somewhat silent and large majority" doesn't even bother to read the rules. A portion of them isn't even familiar enough with the English language to understand them, even if they wanted to. Does that affect the validity of the rules as well? The rules absolutely must be followed. Anyone who wants to contribute has to follow them. Nobody has to read these forums. Seems like a simple enough concept to me. Quote:
Also note that there's a helpful - and pinned - thread called "Collected Statements from Invelos on contribution discussions", where such rulings and clarifications are collected - including the "E=e, É=é" one, of course - meaning they're all readily available to everyone. If you're seriously questioning their validity, I suggest you start by asking Ken to unpin that thread. How, exactly, does that help anybody that doesn't read these forums? Yes, they are readily available to everyone, but everyone isn't required to read and follow these forums. Everyone is, however, required to read and follow the rules if they want to contribute. Again, a very simple concept. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would agree that most users do not read the forums. How then are they expected to follow guidelines that are contained within them?
The rules are where one goes to gain knowledge as to the contribution process. I do not see it written that the forums has addenda pinned for further clarification on issues.
If these additions are in fact rules then something must be added to the Contribution Rules noting such.
Until such time the average user will not know about them and therefore will be contributing correctly based on the guidelines on the official rules chart. |
|  | johnd | | Evening, poetry lovers. |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 298 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
The rules are where one goes to gain knowledge as to the contribution process. I do not see it written that the forums has addenda pinned for further clarification on issues.
Any forum discussion that does not end in a rule revision is just that: a discussion, regardless of who said what, including Ken. As such, they carry no weight at all in determining how a submission should be judged. Remember, the majority of people who have paid for this application do not visit this forum. | | | | Last edited: by johnd |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Outside of our little forum world, those clarifications don't carry any weight. How could they when the majority will never see them? I don't know about anyone else but I know that when I've seen people contributing against forum decisions, I'll let the person know. I've also had several people PM me if I've missed something, particularly common name threads. In the vast majority of cases, the person concerned will adjust the contribution. |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Formerly known as...: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying. Outside of our little forum world, those clarifications don't carry any weight. How could they when the majority will never see them?
I don't know about anyone else but I know that when I've seen people contributing against forum decisions, I'll let the person know. I've also had several people PM me if I've missed something, particularly common name threads.
In the vast majority of cases, the person concerned will adjust the contribution. I agree that this is one way to affect change. But, the problem is that the percentage of people being sent these private messages is minuscule. The most effective way of reaching the greatest number of people is through the Rules Contributions section. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
What if the person converting the credits thinks that the proper conversion of FRANCOIS BERLEAND is actually Fráncóis Bèrlèànd? That's the way they enter it thinking it's completely correct. Are the screeners going to catch this? The screeners will catch this with the help of the voters. And in the rare case it will slip through, someone else will correct it later. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
What if yet another person thinks that they're converting it correctly and they convert it to Fränçöis Bêrlêänd? The next person thinks they're converting it correctly and enters Françöis Berleând. Now this is highly unlikely. So unlikely that it could pass as clownish. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 2,759 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
It may be worth stressing again that this is all just a (misguided) suggestion by a few users, nothing more. I would say that "misguided" is offensive in this context and a "few users" is belittling the matter. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Formerly known as...: Quote:
I don't know about anyone else but I know that when I've seen people contributing against forum decisions, I'll let the person know. I've also had several people PM me if I've missed something, particularly common name threads. So do I. Quote:
In the vast majority of cases, the person concerned will adjust the contribution. I have the same experience. With that, I give up. It's obvious that Ken's rulings - every one of them - stands. It may be worth noting that this particular one is merely a clarification to the existing rules, that were being twisted away from their original meaning. Note that he started of the whole "E=e, É=é" clarification ( link) by saying: "We're not making a policy change here" - that's because it actually already was in the rules. It's in the rules where they say to enter cast/crew data "exactly as they are in the credits". As I said, a few people have tried to twist that, claiming that that might mean E=é, and that's what prompted Ken's public clarification. He was merely clarifiying how to read the rule: not making a policy change, but simply declaring what the "exactly as they are in the credits" bit from the rules means. Apparently, that means "E=e, É=é". It is and has always been in the rules - Ken just clarified its meaning for those who questioned it. |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
What if the person converting the credits thinks that the proper conversion of FRANCOIS BERLEAND is actually Fráncóis Bèrlèànd? That's the way they enter it thinking it's completely correct. Are the screeners going to catch this?
The screeners will catch this with the help of the voters. And in the rare case it will slip through, someone else will correct it later. If it's a brand new contribution and there's no votes on it? I can't image the screeners pour over every single cast or crew entry of every single profile submission. And even if they do, who's to say the screeners have the proper linguistic skills to catch these errors when they're being introduced? Are they experts in all languages that are foreign to them and their proper conversions? And I would still like to know who these people that will come and correct it later are. Lots of people that are for this, keep claiming this will happen. It rarely happens as it is now. I recently realized I had the wrong locality for the film Demolition Man in my local. A Canadian locality (which really doesn't even need to exist, but that's a different story ), so I deleted that one, and downloaded the proper U.S. locality to match my dvd. In that profile was a make-up credit for Scott H. Eddo, submitted on November 29th, 2008. Scott H. Eddo's common name was actually established as Scott Eddo through a common name thread started on May 2nd 2009. Between the time of May 2nd 2009 and the time I submitted the proper common name of Scott Eddo [Scott H. Eddo] on July 13th 2010, two additional contributions were made to the profile. Neither caught the missing common name. 14 months a non-linking name sat in that profile until I fixed it after just accidentally noticing I had the wrong locality in my local. I had 32 yes votes on my contribution. 32 yes votes on any contribution is pretty high. 32 yes votes, two additional corrections to the profile after the name was originally introduced and a common name thread... and still, no one fixed it. I can't help but be extremely skeptical about this whole mentality of "someone else will correct it later on". If that's the case, then why does Queen Latifah still have 73 separate credits for Queen//Latifah on the first six pages of her credits in the CLT? (I'm scared to count how many she has for all 33 pages). Out of 150 profiles, on those first six pages there's 73 incorrect entries for her. That's likened to almost 50% of profiles on the first six pages having incorrecting entries for her. Queen Latifah is explicitly stated in the rules as an example of stage names to go entirely in the first name field. How long ago was that rule introduced? Who are these people that are going to correct these profiles, and why haven't they done it already? That's a case of a rule having one explicit way of doing things. Surfeur's proposal says "do it the way you think is best, you may not have the knowledge, and you may do it incorrectly, but do it the best you can" meaning there will be multiple ways people will be doing it. People will do it incorrectly. I don't think anyone can argue that fact, because it will happen. And we're going to rely on the experts to come and fix it for us. Meanwhile, we're still waiting on regular members instead of members with expertise in a certain field to fix incorrect things in the system as they are now, and have been that way for years. I do apologize and mean no offense, but in my opeinion, the whole "someone will come fix it" stance just doesn't hold water. | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting RHo: Quote:
Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
What if yet another person thinks that they're converting it correctly and they convert it to Fränçöis Bêrlêänd? The next person thinks they're converting it correctly and enters Françöis Berleând.
Now this is highly unlikely. So unlikely that it could pass as clownish. How unlikely? I don't even know what language the letter ö properly belongs to if I'm being completely honest and risking ridicule. I would take the time to figure it out before submitting something, but how many other users would? And that's the problem. I keep hearing "it's unlikely" or "don't touch the data". No one can guarantee that an unlikely scenario will not happen. No on can guarantee that someone who doesn't have the knowledge won't touch the data. It's just not possible to guarantee those things. They will happen. And with a rule that leaves it up to a user's knowledge instead of simply saying "do it this way, and this way only", those scenarios can happen. With a "do it this way, and this way only" rule, there's no room for interpretation. With a "do it the best you can and we're not going to give you the knowledge" there's too much room for interpretation. | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. | | | | Last edited: by Merrik |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
I would take the time to figure it out before submitting something, but how many other users would? People have to made a small research in order to fill common name if exists. Rule : To determine whether to enter the name directly as credited, or to use the "Credited As" field, use the Credit Lookup tool.While doing that search, Google will give them correct accentuation in 95% of cases. And without Google, how will they know that they have to choose between CLT results for Melanie Laurent (3/3) and CLT results for Mélanie Laurent (32/131)? Without that search, common name will be missed. So present system presents exactly the same difficulty for contributors that want to send the best data possible. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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