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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Role Capitalization? |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
Until the time when a completely new linking system is implemented (I'm not holding my breath... although that doesn't mean I think we should stop asking), a change like this would cause more problems than it would solve. Indeed. That's exactly the course of action here: first we should see if there's any chance of actually getting a completely new linking system. If we do, then we should look into this again. Right now, though, it really shouldn't stand a chance. |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Closed: Quote:
Show me the Rule, Martian. Even Yves has admitted there is not one. Yet <gasp> there is an upper case ç, just as there is an Upper Case for most EVERY diacritical, but that's not relevant to you, because you aren't dealing with facts. You are dealing with a world of fiction, a world of total imagination and facts are not relevant. Saying that a character exists in windows only tells 1/4 of the story. The whole story is: 1. capitalization of accented characters has evolved over the years: ç used to be capitalized as C, because an accented capitalized version did not exist on earlier type writers and computers. 2. Even though those capitalized accented versions exist now, they still can't be entered with a regular keyboard. You need to enter them either using ASCII code (ALT + ###) or the character map in Windows Word for example 3. given point 2 above, I doubt a lot of credit typers take the trouble to learn and enter the ASCII code, with all due respect to them and the job they do When you look at the whole picture, it paints a very different story than simply stating: "the characters exist so it's a 1 on 1 conversion" ... a very different story. And the above points 1 & 2 are indeed also, facts! Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
Until the time when a completely new linking system is implemented (I'm not holding my breath... although that doesn't mean I think we should stop asking), a change like this would cause more problems than it would solve.
Indeed. That's exactly the course of action here: first we should see if there's any chance of actually getting a completely new linking system. If we do, then we should look into this again. Right now, though, it really shouldn't stand a chance. I think linking would work just as well with Surfeur's proposal as it does now. Now:CLT shows which version is used the most and we use 'credited as' to link them. For accented names, the dominant one is often the unaccented version. With Surfeur's system:The accented version becomes the dominant one and you can still link them together by using credited as. I'm sorry but I don't see the problem, provided contributors continue to use the credited as feature. If anything, Surfeur's suggestion might improve CLT results so that the correctly accented name becomes the dominant one whereas now, it is often the other way around. | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
I'm sorry but I don't see the problem, provided contributors continue to use the credited as feature. But they won't. Most contributors just wouldn't know what to do. I certainly wouldn't. See my post from the previous page: Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
CALECON to caleçon is correct, to çalecon is not.
The problem is that I wouldn't have known that, and I think it's pretty safe to say that most of our users wouldn't know that. Which is why I've paraphrased your proposal earlier as "oh well, just enter things the way you deem fit", because really, that's what it comes down to. I would have no firm grasp as to what I was doing. Some capitals I would convert into lowercase with some kind of diacritic, likely the more obvious ones (think: "François") of which I've seen some examples, but others I wouldn't - and I'd be bound to make plenty of mistakes. Most users would. In the meantime, that would seriously mess up the CLT results. And then there's the assumption that someone with more specific knowledge will come along and fix it - apparently just like the assumption that someone would have come along in the past number of years who would've fixed all that IMDb-mined data still in the database... Safe to say: that may easily take a (few) decade(s)... All in all, it just doesn't work. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | But, contributors use the CLT now in the same way: François Berléand Francois Berleand Francois Berléand François Berleand They all get linked using CLT. The difference with Surfeur's idea is that François Berléand has a bigger chance of becoming the dominant name, rather than Francois Berleand. Why would a contributor understand now that these 4 names are the same person and when the accented version becomes the dominant one, not anymore? That's what I don't understand  . Also, with Surfeur's idea, only the locality of France would use that correct capitalization and it's safe to assume that those contributors know how to capitalize in their own language. The only thing contributors from other localities have to do, is use the CLT, that's it. | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
Why would a contributor understand now that these 4 names are the same person and when the accented version becomes the dominant one, not anymore? That's what I don't understand What percentage of the users does actually use the CLT on a daily basis, you think? The difference is that under the current rules, we can all achieve the exact same, consistent, fully "as credited" set of cast and crew data. Of course to rise above "strictly as credited", we still need to apply some much-needed common name, but the point is that the "as credited" transcription of what we see on the screen now is the same whether I'm from America, France, Turkey, Argentina or Japan - no matter how much I know about the various grammar rules all over the world. In surfeur's example, however, I would no longer know for sure how to transcribe the credits. I'd have to be an expert on the language rules of the CoO where the film is from to get it right. If I'm not, I would have to give it my best guess - that is essentially what surfeur proposes. You'd give it your best shot, too, and every other user will, too. And - surprise, surprise - depending on our knowledge, our background, our culture, we'll all end up with a slightly different end result. And since two people would deal with the exact same credit in different ways, the CLT results for these names would be rendered totally meaningless. That's why it doesn't work. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
The difference with Surfeur's idea is that François Berléand has a bigger chance of becoming the dominant name, rather than Francois Berleand. The difference with Surfeur's idea is that people will have to rely on their knowledge of a specific language to properly translate the credits. CALECON to caleçon is correct, CALECON to çalecon is not. That to translate CALECON properly to the credits, it must be entered as caleçon, instead of what we have now, where CALECON = calecon. A simple translation across all languages where there's absolutely no room for interpretation. We're going to get members that know CALECON = caleçon. We're also going to get members that don't know this, have no knowledge of the native language, and translate it to calecon. We're going to get more members that don't know this and have no knowledge of the native language and translate it to çalecon, or çaleçon etc. With what we have now, the linking system that we have now, if people follow it properly, CALECON = calecon. Simple. Done. No room for mistakes. I didn't know that CALECON = caleçon. How many people reading this thread knew that? How many contributors that don't visit the forums (the majority of users) know that? That's going to leave so many things up for interpretation based on a user's knowledge of the native language from which the actor hails. With the way we have it now, if people simply follow the rules and Ken's clarification, everyone should be doing it the same way. With surfeur's proposal, everyone will be doing it the way they THINK is correct. This will play complete havoc on the CLT system. Like I said, I'd be ALL for this if there was a better linking system. One name, all variants link to it. That's not what we have. Until that happens, I don't think this solves anymore problems than it would create. | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. | | | | Last edited: by Merrik |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | Slow typer tonight I guess...  | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | It's all right on the money, Merrik. I really don't know how we can explain it any clearer than this, but I'm afraid we're going to have to keep explaining it for the next thirty pages or so as well...  At least I'm confident that Ken does understand it - he certainly did when he made the standing E=e, É=é ruling - and that's the most important thing. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | | Registered: July 31, 2008 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
To give a more concrete example. Credits in all localities read:
FRANCOIS BERLEAND - LE PERE DE LA MARIEE
US profile: Francois Berleand - Le pere de la mariee
FR profile: François Berléand - Le père de la mariée
Then with CLT you match Francois Berleand to François Berléand and they link perfectly. I put this in the Rules Committee but will repost it here as well - The problem with this is that it negates Ken's decision to use straight conversions of E - e, È to è, etc... & removing the need to know the "foreign" language rules. As it currently stands, to know that there's an alternative accented name, you need to how native speakers would have the name. The CLT doesn't show possible alternatives. If when searching, it can be made to give a list of potential alternatives for a person then I can get behind this suggestion. Otherwise we may as well just enter them under the correct spelling all the time. Does that make sense? Edit: Although Taro's removed the post I quoted, I'll leave mine here for those who don't have access to the other forum. | | | | Last edited: by Ardos |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Formerly known as...: Quote:
Quoting Taro:
Quote:
To give a more concrete example. Credits in all localities read:
FRANCOIS BERLEAND - LE PERE DE LA MARIEE
US profile: Francois Berleand - Le pere de la mariee
FR profile: François Berléand - Le père de la mariée
Then with CLT you match Francois Berleand to François Berléand and they link perfectly.
I put this in the Rules Committee but will repost it here as well -
The problem with this is that it negates Ken's decision to use straight conversions of E - e, È to è, etc... & removing the need to know the "foreign" language rules. As it currently stands, to know that there's an alternative accented name, you need to how native speakers would have the name. The CLT doesn't show possible alternatives. If when searching, it can be made to give a list of potential alternatives for a person then I can get behind this suggestion. Otherwise we may as well just enter them under the correct spelling all the time.
Does that make sense? Ah OK, thanks. Now I see. Yes, I can understand how that might be a problem if one isn't aware that there might be other spellings for a name and the CLT doesn't give it automatically. The thing is, we have that already now: There are profiles (not just French ones, I would assume) with the name François Berléand in it. Invelos still expects contributors to know that there might be variants such as Francois Berleand or Francois Berléand. Sometimes, for Japanese cast I find up to 4 or 5 different spellings for the same actor, and that's not even counting the ones I may not have thought of looking up (not even realizing there is such a spelling in the online). A new linking system would solve many an issue ... | | | Blu-ray collection
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| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Taro: Quote:
There are profiles (not just French ones, I would assume) with the name François Berléand in it. Invelos still expects contributors to know that there might be variants such as Francois Berleand or Francois Berléand. You've just described the entire common name/linking system - this does not exclusively apply to accented names. When I encounter a "Doug Hemphill" credit, I'm supposed to magically know that he's mostly credited as "D. M. Hemphill" as well: same thing. Granted, that's hard and tedious work, and I would welcome a major overhaul of the entire system, but right now, it's the only system we've got. And as explained time and time again, this system can only work with E=e and É=é. |
| | Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Seems there was a point I lost the Overview of this thread.  So I try to write my opinion without direct reference. Overview with complete all-caps and Role names in all-caps: Should be transformed to mixed-case, because of better read-ability. I could very good live with letting it free with which rules it gets transformed. I think this would get balanced by the knowledge and preferences of the users that vote/contribute to a profile. Cast-/crew-members: I don't think with just rule changes we can improve the current use very much. We need a different unique identifier (Person xxxxx) for those which we can link to every profile he's in. For entering the credited as we should get just one name field and we should also add all-caps as seen on screen. (Just typos can be possible, no transforming or parsing mistakes can be done) And the user should be able to add a local name to the Person ID, that is shown up local. (So everyone has it matching to his preference) For first showing up Ken could make a filter for automatically parse the name into the 3 name fields. Because we could add/change the local name a wrong parsing from filter wouldn't be a big prob. Btw, why do I get the feeling this post will never be read by someone? Could it be because there's more argueing than discussion in this thread.  | | | | Last edited: by VirusPil |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Closed: Quote:
There would be NOTHING wrong assuming a name caleçon(calecon) This won't really work, if we're to continue using the CLT for common names, once "calecon" becomes more common than "caleçon". --------------- |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
CALECON to caleçon is correct, to çalecon is not.
The problem is that I wouldn't have known that, and I think it's pretty safe to say that most of our users wouldn't know that. Which is why I've paraphrased your proposal earlier as "oh well, just enter things the way you deem fit", because really, that's what it comes down to. I would have no firm grasp as to what I was doing. Some capitals I would convert into lowercase with some kind of diacritic, likely the more obvious ones (think: "François") of which I've seen some examples, but others I wouldn't - and I'd be bound to make plenty of mistakes. Most users would. In the meantime, that would seriously mess up the CLT results. And then there's the assumption that someone with more specific knowledge will come along and fix it - apparently just like the assumption that someone would have come along in the past number of years who would've fixed all that IMDb-mined data still in the database... Safe to say: that may easily take a (few) decade(s)... All in all, it just doesn't work. If you don't know the language of the profile you are working on well enough to get the spelling correct, perhaps you should leave it to someone else to do. | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
I have a french Canadian film in my local. C.R.A.Z.Y. (great film by the way, totally recommend it to anyone). Luckily for me, the credits were in mixed case, so there wasn't any worries about proper conversions. The profile was submitted on April 15th, 2007. That initial submission was also the LAST submission to the profile until I submitted corrections to it on May 30th of this year. Over three years of waiting where not a single person touched the profile. If the credits had been all caps where proper conversion was needed, someone tell me, WHO is this knowledgable person that would come along and fix this profile for me? Meanwhile, I sit and wait doing jack squat with completely incorrect information in my local (and by association, completely incorrect information in the online)?? Anyone want to volunteer?
I'm confused. If you have a profile with a bunch of spelling errors in it and you know it has a bunch of spelling errors in it, why aren't you fixing them and contributing them to the on-line database instead of asking who is going to fix it? If, on the other hand, you have a profile with a bunch of errors in it and you don't know that it has a bunch of errors in it, why do you care if it gets fixed or not? If the data in the on-line is wrong, but nobody is using it and nobody cares, what difference does it make if nobody comes along to fix it? That's like saying, I've got this old car in the barn in the back, that I want to keep, but I'm never going to drive it. Even so, I must fix it up and get it into driving condition. What's the point. Eventually, someone who really likes that car may come along and buy it and fix it up for themselves. If not, who cares. No one. | | | | Hal | | | | Last edited: by hal9g |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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