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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Role Capitalization? |
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| Author |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting ya_shin:
Quote:
Quoting Closed:
Quote:
but capitalization does NOT include diacriticals.
Ummm, yes it does. Maybe in English it's irrelevant, but in other languages it is.
Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner. Marty, tell him what he's won.
Marty: He's won a lifetime supply of ridicule in the invelos forums.
 Show me the Rule, Martian. Even Yves has admitted there is not one. Yet <gasp> there is an upper case ç, just as there is an Upper Case for most EVERY diacritical, but that's not relevant to you, because you aren't dealing with facts. You are dealing with a world of fiction, a world of total imagination and facts are not relevant. And BTW never quote Wiki, they are about as relevant and likely to be true as another source. Try Brittanica or World Book or something that does have documented references and experts involved. I look forward to someday just being able to engage in a civil discussion, but it will probably be on Capitol Hill, long before it ever happens here, in fact probably tomorrow down there. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Closed: Quote:
Show me the Rule, Martian. Even Yves has admitted there is not one. There isn't one. I was talking to my daughter while I was reading and misread his post. My bad.  Quote:
Yet <gasp> there is an upper case ç, just as there is an Upper Case for most EVERY diacritical, but that's not relevant to you, because you aren't dealing with facts. You are dealing with a world of fiction, a world of total imagination and facts are not relevant. Not relevant as there is no rule that requires a 'ç' to be converted into a 'Ç'. It is a style choice. As such, a 'Ç' can be, either, a 'c' or a 'ç'. Quote:
And BTW never quote Wiki, they are about as relevant and likely to be true as another source. Try Brittanica or World Book or something that does have documented references and experts involved. How about I quote Microsoft instead. You did say that you'll "trust the expertise of the people who assembled that map, long before {you} will anyone here on these issues." Character Map enables you to view the characters that are available in a selected font. Using Character Map, you can copy individual characters or a group of characters to the Clipboard and paste them into any program that can display them.Isn't that, pretty much, what Wikipedia had to say about it? I notice they didn't say a thing about converting uppercase letters into lowercase.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 6,635 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Closed: Quote:
Show me the Rule, Martian. Even Yves has admitted there is not one. Yet <gasp> there is an upper case ç, just as there is an Upper Case for most EVERY diacritical, but that's not relevant to you, because you aren't dealing with facts. You are dealing with a world of fiction, a world of total imagination and facts are not relevant. Show me the Rule in English for how to correctly spell English words. You can't, because there is no such Rule. Yet, if you see an overview in which the DVD cover includes the word "THERE" and you see in the DVDP Overview that it says "Therr", you know that it is spelled wrong. Use of diacritics is exactly the same in French. If you are French-speaking and see GARCON in the Overview, and you see Garcon in the DVDP Overview, you immediately recognize that it is mis-spelled because someone has used a "c" instead of a "ç". It's just that simple. Nobody needs a Rule to know how to spell words in their own language correctly (not that people don't make lots of spelling mistakes  ). | | | | Hal |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
I notice they didn't say a thing about converting uppercase letters into lowercase. They of course cannot. To explain a little more: There are no automatic rules, but correct spelling is requested. So when converted in lower case, letters must be correctly accented, using the spelling knowledge that you learned in school. We have exactly the same when we dictate : people hear "to", but is it "too", "to", or "two" ? We have to interpret what we hear. Writing "I love him, two", "I'm coming too you, or "I have to daughters" are spelling mistakes. We have the same phenomenon with conversion of capitals , we have to interpret what we see. CALECON to caleçon is correct, to çalecon is not. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting hal9g: Quote:
Quoting Closed:
Quote:
Show me the Rule, Martian. Even Yves has admitted there is not one. Yet <gasp> there is an upper case ç, just as there is an Upper Case for most EVERY diacritical, but that's not relevant to you, because you aren't dealing with facts. You are dealing with a world of fiction, a world of total imagination and facts are not relevant.
Show me the Rule in English for how to correctly spell English words. You can't, because there is no such Rule. Yet, if you see an overview in which the DVD cover includes the word "THERE" and you see in the DVDP Overview that it says "Therr", you know that it is spelled wrong.
Use of diacritics is exactly the same in French. If you are French-speaking and see GARCON in the Overview, and you see Garcon in the DVDP Overview, you immediately recognize that it is mis-spelled because someone has used a "c" instead of a "ç".
It's just that simple. Nobody needs a Rule to know how to spell words in their own language correctly (not that people don't make lots of spelling mistakes ). I can understand that argument, but since we are involved i a cooperative effort to create the database. Then it is important, that everybody is doing the same thing. You don't think I considered that years ago, you are wrong, as i said that was a very conscious decision, it had nothing to do with American English the Queen's English , French or anything. Simply see it type it, not see it interpret it according to whatever standard you want to apply. The culture is film credits. I support a change that will allow surfeur to have what he wants and still retain the integrity of the data as it was intended and save five years of work. What you support Hal is nothing of the kind, you simply want to change the way things are done, NOT according to the credits and throw out five years of work. I repeat the culture is not American English, teh Queen's English, French or anyone else, it is simply the film's credits, plain and simple, no interpretation needed, no fictional data that does not appear On Screen, just the data, WSIWYT. I don't want to fight, but I will defend my ideas especially when I see an idea that is as destructive as yours. I WANT the database to be able to give Yves what he wants, but I also don't want to see everything turned upside down and it doesn't have to be, all that needs to happen is for Ken to sign off on a very simple sentence. If we want to talk about the broken link system that's another story, entirely and I can't fix it, but it is what we have to deal with and to solve this particular issue. If Ken will sign off on it, Yves will win, you and the Martian will win, and I will win, and so will Charlie and other users who feel similarly. If he makes the change you want, you, Yves and the martian, me and others lose. I am sorry that is just no way to operate | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I notice they didn't say a thing about converting uppercase letters into lowercase.
They of course cannot. To explain a little more:
There are no automatic rules, but correct spelling is requested. So when converted in lower case, letters must be correctly accented, using the spelling knowledge that you learned in school.
We have exactly the same when we dictate : people hear "to", but is it "too", "to", or "two" ? We have to interpret what we hear.
Writing "I love him, two", "I'm coming too you, or "I have to daughters" are spelling mistakes.
We have the same phenomenon with conversion of capitals , we have to interpret what we see.
CALECON to caleçon is correct, to çalecon is not. Yves I am trying to get you what you want, I will not support your method however NEVER. Your method is far too damaging. There would be NOTHING wrong assuming a name caleçon(calecon), now I am aware that you are not using a name, but probably something in an Overview and if I know you I suspect that was a very deliberate choice of carefully going off topic to cloud the water. I love him, two might be in the script, but it is not likely to be a Role, it might appear in an Overview but it is not likely an actor/crew name. Stay on topic. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Ken:
All you need to do is sign of on allowing the CLT system to include some cultural usage for diacriticals and even for Asian naming conventions and then all users should be in a win win, there is no restructuring of the database necessary or any major unwinding of the work that has been done the last five years. There MAY be some minor issues relating to the CLT, but I vbeliev such issues should be easily resolved and I don't really see them.
Simply allowing the CLT to reflect
Yun Fat Chow (Chow Yun Fat)
or
François Truffaut (Francois Truffaut)
is all that is needed.
As to the specific issue of capitalization I don't see a problem with allowing for international cap rules to be applied (Rules for each locality) for Roles BUT that does not include the inclusion of non-existent diacritical marks, which might not appear On Screen. In short C=c, Ç=ç, C is not ç, the lat should only be a local decision.
This is as usual is just NUTS, I am trying to create a solution that serves everybody, somebody else simply wants a solution that serves most or some or whatever. I get told I make no sense and i am supposed to remain friendly. I have users who have covered so much territory they confuse everybody, including themselves, they can't even keep straight what they have said or haven't and yet I am the one to be hammered yet again as usual.
I really do hope that you will give this modification serious consideration, Ken, because I do believe everybody wins with it. I see nothing as it affects the CLT that could not be fairly easily ironed out, if anything at all. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,272 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Closed: Quote:
I get told I make no sense and i am supposed to remain friendly. I have users who have covered so much territory they confuse everybody, including themselves, they can't even keep straight what they have said or haven't and yet I am the one to be hammered yet again as usual. To be fair most of this is due to a bad system being in place. I think everyone can agree that a better system could/should be implemented. But only Ken knows how big of an issue that may be. I'd also like to add that maybe the reason you are being 'hammered' isn't so much of what you are saying but how you are saying it. Many of your posts come across as being very confrontational, so even those that might agree with you are reluctance due to your attitude. | | | HDTV: 52" Toshiba Regza 52XV545U AVR: Onkyo TR-707
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BD/DVD/Game: 250GB PS3 Slim DVD/Game: 250GB XBox 360 Elite Special Edition (Black) Game: Wii
Remote: Logitech Harmony One w/ PS3 Adapter WHS: Acer H341 Windows Home Server |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Closed: Quote:
I can understand that argument, but since we are involved i a cooperative effort to create the database. Then it is important, that everybody is doing the same thing. You don't think I considered that years ago, you are wrong, as i said that was a very conscious decision, it had nothing to do with American English the Queen's English , French or anything. Simply see it type it, not see it interpret it according to whatever standard you want to apply.
***SNIP***
But, see, we do not practice 'see it, type it'. We practice 'see it, interpret it'. I am sorry, but that is a fact. See it, type it, would mean we enter FRANCOIS TRUFFAUT as 'FRANCOIS TRUFFAUT'. Anything else is an interpretation. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 |  Posts: 868 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Addicted2DVD: Quote:
Hal.... I always said I thought your suggestion sounded better... but out of curiosity... I know there isn't many like it. But how would handle a credit like Smithee where more then one person may have used the credit? Wouldn't an solution be to have: A. A standard nr. or other identiefier for each actor, with his aliases linked (John Doe = John G. Doe = Johnnie Doe) B. An standard, film based 'profile' of the credits which is voted on by everyone owning said films regardless of region or locality. When starting a new profile you just download and compare to credits, if a mistake is discovered it is again voted on to find out if t's a local/regional change, in which case this change is only added to that specific UPC/Disc-ID, or a mistake in the original credits, in which case it is automatically applied to all profiles of this films C. When you see Allan Smithee you get a list of known aliases and choose the correct one to ensure linking with this movie. Same obviously applies to Robert Downey. You see Robert Downey the option is supplied, did you mean Robert Downey, Jr. or Robert Downey Sr. and you pick the correct one. Tis is than again saved in the film profile mentioned in B. Now i don't know if this is at all possible, and i'm sure there may be problems with it which porbably will be pointed out in the following posts. But it could be a start. But since all this has to come from Ken i'm not sure if we really need to continue to discuss this. Paul |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
CALECON to caleçon is correct, to çalecon is not. The problem is that I wouldn't have known that, and I think it's pretty safe to say that most of our users wouldn't know that. Which is why I've paraphrased your proposal earlier as "oh well, just enter things the way you deem fit", because really, that's what it comes down to. I would have no firm grasp as to what I was doing. Some capitals I would convert into lowercase with some kind of diacritic, likely the more obvious ones (think: "François") of which I've seen some examples, but others I wouldn't - and I'd be bound to make plenty of mistakes. Most users would. In the meantime, that would seriously mess up the CLT results. And then there's the assumption that someone with more specific knowledge will come along and fix it - apparently just like the assumption that someone would have come along in the past number of years who would've fixed all that IMDb-mined data still in the database... Safe to say: that may easily take a (few) decade(s)... All in all, it just doesn't work. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting paulb_99: Quote:
Wouldn't an solution be to have:
A. A standard nr. or other identiefier for each actor, with his aliases linked (John Doe = John G. Doe = Johnnie Doe)
B. An standard, film based 'profile' of the credits which is voted on by everyone owning said films regardless of region or locality. When starting a new profile you just download and compare to credits, if a mistake is discovered it is again voted on to find out if t's a local/regional change, in which case this change is only added to that specific UPC/Disc-ID, or a mistake in the original credits, in which case it is automatically applied to all profiles of this films
C. When you see Allan Smithee you get a list of known aliases and choose the correct one to ensure linking with this movie. Same obviously applies to Robert Downey. You see Robert Downey the option is supplied, did you mean Robert Downey, Jr. or Robert Downey Sr. and you pick the correct one. Tis is than again saved in the film profile mentioned in B. Yes! A combination of these three things - a unique identifier, having one film-based set of credits that is voted on by everyone that particular film regardless of region or locality, and having a list of known aliases associated to each unique identifier so that when you come accross a "Robert Downey", the system will ask you "Did you mean Robert Downey, Jr. or Robert Downey, Sr.?" - that's what we need. |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
And then there's the assumption that someone with more specific knowledge will come along and fix it - apparently just like the assumption that someone would have come along in the past number of years who would've fixed all that IMDb-mined data still in the database... Safe to say: that may easily take a (few) decade(s)... All in all, it just doesn't work. Yeah, we've all seen how well that assumption works. "Someone will fix it" is not the way to go. If I have to sit around and wait for someone to fix a profile in my local because I don't know that CALECON to caleçon is correct while CALECON to çalecon is not, I'm going to be waiting FOREVER (especially with this silly mentality that people shouldn't contribute to profiles they don't own... which is a topic for another time). I have a french Canadian film in my local. C.R.A.Z.Y. (great film by the way, totally recommend it to anyone). Luckily for me, the credits were in mixed case, so there wasn't any worries about proper conversions. The profile was submitted on April 15th, 2007. That initial submission was also the LAST submission to the profile until I submitted corrections to it on May 30th of this year. Over three years of waiting where not a single person touched the profile. If the credits had been all caps where proper conversion was needed, someone tell me, WHO is this knowledgable person that would come along and fix this profile for me? Meanwhile, I sit and wait doing jack squat with completely incorrect information in my local (and by association, completely incorrect information in the online)?? Anyone want to volunteer? The fact of the matter is, the average user is absolutely not going to know proper conversions, and that's going to seriously limit their ability to contribute to specific profiles. Sure we can talk about how it's only going to affect a small number of profiles for people with mostly Hollywood films, but it WILL still affect some of their profiles. Hence Ken's clarification of É = é and E = e. I'm sorry, I think ease of use in this case absolutely has to overrule the proper conversions, simply because the majority of users won't know what to do. Therefore they'll end up doing it wrong. And then there are those that will do it right. And then there are those that will do it a different way, thinking they're doing it right etc. etc. In the end? A bigger mess than what we have now. To take the example already here, if I were doing a profile and I came across CALECON, I would enter it as Calecon (if it's the first word in a sentence or a name, calecon if it's neither), because that's the way we've been asked to do it. Then there are those that would technically do it properly, and those that would do it incorrectly. So for that single entry instead of CALECON = Calecon (which again, is what we're asked to do now), we'd possibly get: CALECON = Calecon, Caleçon, Çalecon, Çaleçon, çaleçon... That's insane. All possible entries... none of which would link. Until the time when a completely new linking system is implemented (I'm not holding my breath... although that doesn't mean I think we should stop asking), a change like this would cause more problems than it would solve. Just my opinion of course. | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. | | | | Last edited: by Merrik |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Merrik: Quote:
CALECON = Calecon, Caleçon, Çalecon, Çaleçon, çaleçon...
That's insane. All possible entries... none of which would link.
Yes, that is insane, Francois Berleand, François Berleand, Francois Berléand, François Berléand. All existing entries... none of which link. | | | | Images from movies |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Yes, that is insane, Francois Berleand, François Berleand, Francois Berléand, François Berléand. All existing entries... none of which link. Yes they do - if the current rules are properly followed. Instead, you're suggesting a rule change where such credits won't link, even if each and every user were to to follow your rule to the best of their ability. There's a huge difference there. |
| | Registered: September 30, 2008 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,805 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Merrik:
Quote:
CALECON = Calecon, Caleçon, Çalecon, Çaleçon, çaleçon...
That's insane. All possible entries... none of which would link.
Yes, that is insane, Francois Berleand, François Berleand, Francois Berléand, François Berléand. All existing entries... none of which link. If people were doing it the way it was being asked of them... they would. There's no room for interpretation in É = é & E = e. It translates across all regions, across all languages. The proposal you're making unfortunately does not. Plus there's the thought that É = é & E = e doesn't leave it open for the person translating the credits to have to rely on their best knowledge of a language they don't know anything about. Your proposal does exactly this. | | | | The night is calling. And it whispers to me soflty come and play. | | | | Last edited: by Merrik |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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