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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Wardrobe Direction? |
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| Registered: March 24, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,230 |
| | Posted: | | | | Having read arguments for and against, I still don't understand why Costume Supervisor, Wardrobe Designer, and Wardrobe Supervisor are valid terms for a Costume Designer but Wardrobe Director isn't.
As the costume director job responsibilities (posted by areo357 ) include "Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas", I don't see how that job wouldn't be interchangeable with the roles of a Costume Supervisor or Wardrobe Director. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,678 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ObiKen: Quote:
What about the second line "Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas...", how is that different from a Costume Supervisor? I didn't say that it is, I just made an observation that no designing seemed to be involved. Is it different from Costume Supervisor? I'd have to see the definition for Costume Supervisor to know. For what it's worth,I lean towards thinking that Wardrobe Direction is a valid credit. | | | My freeware tools for DVD Profiler users.
Gunnar |
| | Registered: March 24, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,230 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting GSyren: Quote:
Quoting ObiKen:
Quote:
What about the second line "Supervises staff in all costume/wardrobe areas...", how is that different from a Costume Supervisor?
I didn't say that it is, I just made an observation that no designing seemed to be involved. Is it different from Costume Supervisor? I'd have to see the definition for Costume Supervisor to know.
For what it's worth,I lean towards thinking that Wardrobe Direction is a valid credit. I think that's a key point: a costume supervisor is entered in the credits as a costume designer. As the same can be said for a wardrobe designer, is a costume supervisor very different from a wardrobe director? |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | Personally, I think all of them can be valid credits for costume designer, when there is no one credited as Costume Designer. If we had the ability to add anything to the credit table, I'd vote yes to adding Wardrobe Director/Direction to the list of accepted aliases. I'd just also want an option so we don't get both the Designer and the Supervisor credits (much like so we don't get both Sound & Production Sound Mixer). | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
I'd just also want an option so we don't get both the Designer and the Supervisor credits (much like so we don't get both Sound & Production Sound Mixer). It's very conceivable to me that multiple people may have designed costumes for a film and that one of those designers may be credited as a Director because they not only designed some of the costumes but directed the entire costume department, so I don't think I'd necessarily want to disqualify a Wardrobe Director just because they weren't the sole costume designer. I can't imagine that we should exclude Wardrobe Director as a costume designer when we can use "Department Head" as a make-up artist credit. --------------- |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | To add to the confusion about the Wardrobe Director credit. Whether we consider Wardrobe Director a valid credit or not, it would change the common name for Charles LeMaire / Charles Le Maire depending on it  With Wardrobe Director as invalid credit:Charles Le Maire (3 confirmed, 3 unconfirmed, 64 invalid): Charles LeMaire (28 confirmed, 5 unconfirmed, 51 invalid): With Wardrobe Director as valid credit:Charles Le Maire (71 confirmed, 3 unconfirmed, 7 invalid): Charles LeMaire (60 confirmed, 5 unconfirmed, 20 invalid): | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Since the CLT results are...
Charles LeMaire ----- 101
Charles Le Maire ----- 81
... the common name is Charles LeMaire until the profiles are corrected and the CLT reflects a different status.
Common name threads are a great aid in helping us get the profiles corrected, but the common name must come from the CLT.
But of course this doesn't solve the problem of which credits are valid.
--------------- | | | | Last edited: by scotthm |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
Common name threads are a great aid in helping us get the profiles corrected, but the common name must come from the CLT. No, they don't. Instead, per Ken, errors in the CLT may be documented and be taken into account - and that's exactly what common name-finding threads do, why we do them. Conclusive common name-finding threads trump the raw CLT numbers. Those are the facts, and I think I'm going to leave it at that, this time. We've been around this block before, there's really no point in rehashing it all yet again - certainly not when it's hijacking a thread that isn't even about this at all. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: May 2, 2009 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 490 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ninso4: Quote:
To add to the confusion about the Wardrobe Director credit. Whether we consider Wardrobe Director a valid credit or not, it would change the common name for Charles LeMaire / Charles Le Maire depending on it
With Wardrobe Director as invalid credit:
Charles Le Maire (3 confirmed, 3 unconfirmed, 64 invalid):
Charles LeMaire (28 confirmed, 5 unconfirmed, 51 invalid):
With Wardrobe Director as valid credit:
Charles Le Maire (71 confirmed, 3 unconfirmed, 7 invalid):
Charles LeMaire (60 confirmed, 5 unconfirmed, 20 invalid): I think this is quite the indicator that something is up with both his Costume Designer work/credit and this whole debate. The second scenario looks a heck of a lot more credible, where he isn't removed from being credited. That's why I definitely think that we must consider "credit based on facts & documentation" (what we know the credit is for) and not "how a person is credited". Subsequently, that is why I don't necessarily agree with the "sub rule" that if a Costume Designer is credited, any Wardrobe Director credit is rendered invalid, regardless of real world circumstances. (Yeah, I was never a fan of principles if they aren't based on facts or proper explanations.) Lastly, I will take this opportunity to apologize to ninso4 for coming at him a bit harshly in his common name thread. I was just lashing out because of the (visually) "outrageous" situation, nothing personal. And I didn't know about at what point/date the "scale tipped over" regarding new findings. | | | | Last edited: by MikaLove |
| | Registered: May 2, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 490 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Nosferatu: Quote:
I think that's a key point: a costume supervisor is entered in the credits as a costume designer. As the same can be said for a wardrobe designer, is a costume supervisor very different from a wardrobe director? I would agree with this as well. Although IMHO this isn't as much about "semantics" and labels as it is about researching and providing valid documentation. I'm not the least bit an expert on wardrobe and costume "stuff", but it seems to me there are quite a few ways to credit such crew, as opposed to other crew, but while the wardrobe crew is doing very similar jobs. I'd think the producers just like to credit them in a "fashion" (pun) that suits (pun #2) the crew members, the way they see it. Quoting scotthm: Quote:
It's very conceivable to me that multiple people may have designed costumes for a film and that one of those designers may be credited as a Director because they not only designed some of the costumes but directed the entire costume department, so I don't think I'd necessarily want to disqualify a Wardrobe Director just because they weren't the sole costume designer. This! Quoting T!M: Quote:
No, they don't. Instead, per Ken, errors in the CLT may be documented and be taken into account - and that's exactly what common name-finding threads do, why we do them. Conclusive common name-finding threads trump the raw CLT numbers. And absolutely this! Coming from one of our uncrowned kings of common name documentation. | | | | Last edited: by MikaLove |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
No, they don't. Instead, per Ken, errors in the CLT may be documented and be taken into account - and that's exactly what common name-finding threads do, why we do them. Conclusive common name-finding threads trump the raw CLT numbers. Ken is not here. The Rules are. Common name threads are not conclusive because the database is not static. --------------- | | | | Last edited: by scotthm |
| | Registered: May 2, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 490 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
Ken is not here. The Rules are. Common name threads are not conclusive because the database is not static. This, I'd say, is not really up for debate: the sole purpose of the common name threads are to fix the flawed CLT. This has been done since the beginning. A CLT result will only be regarded as accurate if the documentation is proper. I mean, we all know a lot of the data here has been mined from invalid 3rd party sites, which is against the rules. So for that reason, to the "rebels" who want to claim the CLT is almighty and trumps anything else, it's not that black and white. We strive for the highest database integrity here. Right?! Either we do, or anything goes and is arbitrary. Meaning, an anarchy. |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting MikaLove: Quote:
This, I'd say, is not really up for debate: the sole purpose of the common name threads are to fix the flawed CLT. The CLT is not flawed, the data in the profiles is flawed. If we use the common name threads to correct the profiles then the CLT will give us the results we want. However, even if the profiles are not corrected the CLT will give us the result we need, which is one name to be used as a common name. It really does not matter one iota whether "Charles Le Maire" or "Charles LeMaire" is the common name, as long as we have a method (the CLT) to come to agreement, and the credited name is correct in the profile. --------------- |
| | Registered: January 16, 2010 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,617 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting MikaLove: Quote:
Quoting Nosferatu:
Quote:
I think that's a key point: a costume supervisor is entered in the credits as a costume designer. As the same can be said for a wardrobe designer, is a costume supervisor very different from a wardrobe director?
I would agree with this as well.
Although IMHO this isn't as much about "semantics" and labels as it is about researching and providing valid documentation.
I'm not the least bit an expert on wardrobe and costume "stuff", but it seems to me there are quite a few ways to credit such crew, as opposed to other crew, but while the wardrobe crew is doing very similar jobs. I'd think the producers just like to credit them in a "fashion" (pun) that suits (pun #2) the crew members, the way they see it.
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
It's very conceivable to me that multiple people may have designed costumes for a film and that one of those designers may be credited as a Director because they not only designed some of the costumes but directed the entire costume department, so I don't think I'd necessarily want to disqualify a Wardrobe Director just because they weren't the sole costume designer.
This!
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
No, they don't. Instead, per Ken, errors in the CLT may be documented and be taken into account - and that's exactly what common name-finding threads do, why we do them. Conclusive common name-finding threads trump the raw CLT numbers.
And absolutely this!
Coming from one of our uncrowned kings of common name documentation. Thanks for your kind words and I agree with lot what you're saying. I'm a big fan of a broad interpretation of the rules. Especially when it comes to older films. Credits weren't as formalized back then as they are today. I think we should consider that. But I would make a difference between a Wardrobe Director and a Costume Supervisor. A costume supervisor seems to be a subordinate person to the costume designer. Whereas Wardrobe Director seems to be a rather unique credit.Or has anyone ever seen a person other than Charles Le Maire who had such a credit? Le Maire was, after all, apparently the head of the entire costume department at 20th Century Fox in his day. So he was above the respective costume designers of the individual films and he will have been more or less involved in at least the important films. He also won Oscars for some of them. Maybe the part of the rules that deals with supervising credits can be applied to the Wardrobe Director after all. I was against it when I started the thread. Now I'm not so sure about it. | | | Think different
Everything will be okay in the end. If it's not okay, it's not the end. |
| | Registered: May 2, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 490 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
The CLT is not flawed, the data in the profiles is flawed. This is what I meant, nothing more. But because the data has been mined from 3rd party sources and is not in accordance with this DB, it's unacceptable and it must be fixed, otherwise we're just undermining the DB and the whole idea of DVDProfiler. Naturally, if we don't know if a name is the common name or not, then we can't do anything about it. But when you may suspect the CLT results are wrong, then we can fix it. Quoting ninso4: Quote:
Thanks for your kind words and I agree with lot what you're saying. You're welcome!  I agree with a broad interpretation of the rules as well, but I'd like to emphasize what I believe is key here: that we should credit after what we know or what we can prove concerning a crew member and his role in a production. If we can't, we must stick to the general rules here. However, as you also suggest, there might be reasons to question very rigid rules, when we encounter new situations. Not haphazardly of course, but with rational reasoning. DVDProfiler has always been under change, like everything else in our universe. I don't think it should all come to a halt because the main programmer jumped ship and abandoned us. I mean, there are other types of changes being done. There's no reason to be "nostalgic" and old fashioned and vote down suggestions for change, or alternative interpretations. The above is aimed towards the whole community, not just you, ninso4. As I'm also sure you agree with at least most of my thoughts.  |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | This is not a type of credit that has appeared in the last few years. I'm pretty sure the films were in the database when the crew grid was established and it wasn't included in the costume designer list. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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