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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Source for uncredited cast? |
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| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting ateo357: Quote:
I follow the rules as they are written. I never asked you not to follow them. I just explained why Invelos data is rubbish, and IMDb data is correct. | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Though I have explained this many times, some people have still not understood the problem Problem? What problem? I don't have FRANCOIS BERLEAND credited in a single profile. --------------- |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting scotthm: Quote:
Problem? What problem? I don't have FRANCOIS BERLEAND credited in a single profile.
Lucky man. And I suppose you don't have any actor with accented names in your collection  . You know, there are many interesting movies from Europe...  | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting scotthm:
Quote:
Problem? What problem? I don't have FRANCOIS BERLEAND credited in a single profile.
Lucky man. And I suppose you don't have any actor with accented names in your collection . Oh, I think there are a few, but not enough to get excited about. If the presence/absence of accents is the only thing you have to worry about when it comes to name linking you're lucky. I think that could be easily dealt with by building a filter into the search engine. I have to contend with things like DAWN O'DAY = ANNE SHIRLEY and MARK ROBERTS = ROBERT SCOTT, not to mention the copious usage of nick-names and misspellings in the credits. And yet I feel no need to climb on my soapbox. Quote:
You know, there are many interesting movies from Europe... I know. I do have several British films. --------------- |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
...IMDB-mined rubbish polluting the database.
IMDb-mined data is far more exact than Invelos rules invented data. Rubbish polluting the database does not come from IMDb, it comes from insane rules. I cannot understand how people can accept that Ziyi ZHANG does not link wih ZHANG Ziyi, or Jean-Paul Belmondo with Jean Paul Belmondo. That is what we get with Invelos database, not with IMDb. In fact this is not what WE get, but what YOU get. Strangely in my database these (and others, even François and Francois) link quite well. So when is it that you will finally understand that IMDb and DVDProfiler data are NOT compatible and that those insisting on contributing incompatible data to our database are in fact part of the problem and not the solution. Mind you, I'm not saying that any of these are better and/or more correct, both databases have their pros and cons. But most of the problems of our database arise from those good-willing contributors that import(ed) Third-Party material. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Pantheon: Quote:
We ALL agree with what you say. I think that after Lewis_Prothero post, you'll agree with me that not everybody agrees with what I say. Unfortunately, I must admit that, if after repeating things so many times that you get bored against me, people like him are still totally unable to understand the problem, the situation will not improve in a near future...  | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
We ALL agree with what you say.
I think that after Lewis_Prothero post, you'll agree with me that not everybody agrees with what I say. Unfortunately, I must admit that, if after repeating things so many times that you get bored against me, people like him are still totally unable to understand the problem, the situation will not improve in a near future... Yves - the problem isn't with the community, what they do or do not want or even if there can be agreement on the issue. Ken has decided not to address or deal with this issue despite repeated requests and numerous threads spread over many years. If and when invelos decides to do something - terrific. But, repeating yourself over and over again over the years has not influenced invelos to take any action on the topic. What makes you think that repeating yourself yet again will have a different result this time? It just might be that, as far as this issue is concerned, Ken doesn't think there is a problem and he likes the program exactly the way it is. |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
What makes you think that repeating yourself yet again will have a different result this time? I have not been opening myself a thread on this subject for monthes. But during that time, many users wrote that Invelos database is marvellous and IMDb is rubbish. If nobody dare say that this is not the truth, what will be the chances to see Ken change his mind in the future ?? None. What I do is because I love this program, and I'm sick to see that all this marvellous job has been partially ruined by rules suggested by users that had not the beginning of understanding of non-english languages. If you remember history, when the accented names where discussed, Gerry wrote that capitalization rules of the language of concerned actors should be followed. This statement lasted a little week during which some very vocal users explained that this was an error, then Ken wrote that Gerry had not written exactly what she had written, and changed totally the statement. This was the beginning of the end for correct data. From this point, actors with accented names began to see one to three non-existing variants. At the same time, it was impossible to have a simple rule for asian names. In which field were we requested to put family name : in first field as in credits, or in third field as for all non-Asian languages ? Each Asian actor saw at least one reversed variant in the database. For my tiny collection of 1500 movies, I can count in the online more than 4000 non-existing variants, for about 1500 accented names and 1500 Asian names. Sure, people having only english language movies don't even understand the problem. Will Ken hear me one day ? Probably not, since so many users suggest him not to change anything. Is that a reason to let users lie about the reality of the non-english part of the database. Certainly not. | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
But during that time, many users wrote that Invelos database is marvellous and IMDb is rubbish. We must be reading things differently because I haven't seen anything of the sort. I see people expressing their preference for the Invelos database. Why wouldn't they? This is the forum of that database. I'll bet if you were to go to IMDb you would find that the users there prefer IMDb. What I have seen is people requesting the ability to use IMDb data in ways that violate invelos' written policy. People should not violate invelos' OR IMDb policies. It is legally and ethically wrong. Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
If you remember history, when the accented names where discussed, Gerry wrote that capitalization rules of the language of concerned actors should be followed. This statement lasted a little week during which some very vocal users explained that this was an error, then Ken wrote that Gerry had not written exactly what she had written, and changed totally the statement. Ken is the owner of the program and he has the right to change things if he wants to. Whether or not this decision is the best one can be disputed. There has been numerous threads over many years to get Ken to address this issue. Since he refuses to do so it seems that Ken is happy with the database as is. Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Sure, people having only english language movies don't even understand the problem. I find your comment here to be quite insulting. I do understand the issue. In fact I find a lot of your arguments quite compelling and feel that many things can and should be addressed. Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Will Ken hear me one day ? Probably not, since so many users suggest him not to change anything. Is that a reason to let users lie about the reality of the non-english part of the database. Certainly not. Ken reads these forums and I'm sure he is acutely aware of the the many discussions that have revolved around these topics. It might be that his view of the issue differs from yours. Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Is that a reason to let users lie about the reality of the non-english part of the database. Certainly not. "lie" - I'm sorry but that is very insulting. There are many accents that we can not use in the database because the program does not allow it. Others, such as the ones you would like to use, are also not allowed because the program owner does not allow it. This does not mean that the community is lying. All it means is that we are contributing to the online database using the limits and restraints that are required by the computer and/or the owner of the program. Nothing more. If you want changes there are steps that might lead Ken to implement some of them - developing a system that might address those issues and submitting them in the rules committee for example. Personally there are a lot of things that I would like Ken to fix. The ability to have multiple cover scans, linking, etc. These things have been addressed countless times, Ken is aware of them and I don't see how negative comments in the forums will make invelos implement them any faster if at all. |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Pantheon:
Quote:
We ALL agree with what you say.
I think that after Lewis_Prothero post, you'll agree with me that not everybody agrees with what I say. Unfortunately, I must admit that, if after repeating things so many times that you get bored against me, people like him are still totally unable to understand the problem, the situation will not improve in a near future... ?? The point is not that I wouldn't see what you consider to be a problem. It's more that your proposed "solution" IMO would cause more problems than it solves. To stay in your language: I've seen several credits of French movies (the latest being "Intouchables" if I recall correctly) where you could see a FRANCOIS and a FRANÇOIS listed happily together. So what are we (non-native) owners of French movies supposed to make of this?? Assume typos and "correct" them, assume an internationalised stage name or assume something else? Point is: We cannot know why the credits are as they are. All we have is the credits. Possibly (e.g.) François Bérleand picked the spelling "Francois Berleand" in the credits for a reason (internationalised spelling) and if only so that the casting bureaus will find him more easily. So really where is the difference in Stage name Francois Berleand compared to stage name Marilyn Monroe. Why is it so difficult to accept that actors from other countries assimilate the spelling of their names to the adequate spelling of the country they work in? Is it just because we know (for a given value of "know" only) how the name should be actually spelled? In fact I never understood why "as credited" is so hard to understand and what might be the problem about it. What I especially don't understand is why linking this variants to the most credited form (whichever this is) should be impossible to achieve. And if the French declare that the common name of FRANCOIS is supposed to be FRANÇOIS, then by all means, so be it, as long as we aren't forced to transcribe the actual credits into something that regardless of your proclamations never actually shows up in actual credits. Crosslinks are not exactly what I'd call witchcraft, but simply a necessary tool we have to solve such "problems". | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 | | | | Last edited: by Lewis_Prothero |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
people having only english language movies don't even understand the problem. Phew! I guess I'm lucky to have a couple Spanish language films.  --------------- |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Lewis_Prothero: Quote:
So really where is the difference in Stage name Francois Berleand compared to stage name Marilyn Monroe. When a reporter adressed to Marilyn, he said Marilyn Monroe. And when a reporter adresses to François Berléand, I never heard him saying "Fran Kois Ber lend" (which is the pronunciation of Francois Berleand), but "Fran SSois Berl é-and" (which is the pronunciation of François Berléand). Marilyn chose her stage name. François Berléand never chose any Francois Berleand as stage name. This "stage" name appears in only one movie database (probably the best one, among dozen movie databases that are probably wrong), and a Google search about Francois Berleand gives results only with François Berléand, Google engines ignoring that spelling mistakes are requested by Invelos. Yes, I see some differences. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Posts: 824 |
| | Posted: | | | | IMDB is far from rubbish, I use it all the time, it's my #1 reference tool. There is a reason it is extremely popular and gets the traffic that it does. To call IMDB bad, or rubbish, is an extreme falsehood, IMHO. Its linking isn't perfect but it's the best I've seen anywhere.
I really only use DVD Profiler nowadays just to track what I have. For cast, crew, etc., I use IMDB. It is miles better than what's in the DVD Profiler online, that is my opinion, and I am entitled to it.
If I had the knowledge, or the contacts, I would write a DVD tracking program that pulls as much data off the disc itself automatically, and catalogs by disc ID. There is actually a ton of info on discs. I wouldn't have more than maybe 6 - 10 or so fields that would be user entered, mainly cover scans (front and back), cover title, locality, UPC (which there could be multiple per disc ID), release date, maybe the director, and, more importantly, web links so that you could just click them and go to IMDB, Wikipedia, and others for all the cast, crew, company data, etc. That would be my personal dream program. | | | | 99.9% of all cat plans consist only of "Step 1." |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Grendell: Quote:
I wouldn't have more than maybe 6 - 10 or so fields that would be user entered, mainly cover scans (front and back), cover title, locality, UPC (which there could be multiple per disc ID), release date, maybe the director, and, more importantly, web links so that you could just click them and go to IMDB, Wikipedia, and others for all the cast, crew, company data, etc. That would be my personal dream program. Can't you do all that with DVD Profiler now? --------------- |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unless, I'm mistaken, isn't IMDB a user-built database too?
So, doesn't the person inputting data have to link names together? (With suggestions from IMDB? I'm not sure).
@surfeur - if you utilise the DVDProfiler Credited As system and then upload that information to the online database, surely that would rectify the problem you have?
To use your example...here are the CLT results:
CLT results:
François Berléand=138
Francois Berleand=19
So, there are 19 titles in the database that are wrong. If THOSE 19 were corrected - either against the credits or by using Credited As - the problem is solved. Then whenever a new François Berléand is added to the database it can also be corrected.
I realise you would like us to just follow cultural naming rules; but INVELOS have said we can't do that. So, the only way to achieve what you want is to make the Profiler database better.
That's what everyone who uses the Credited As function is trying to do. It's not perfect, but it's all we have at the moment; so surely you could just make the best of it?
Every time you spot the need for a Credited As (that is supported by the CLT) then submit it to the database. It might take longer than our lifetimes; but it's the only way to improve things. |
| | Registered: December 27, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,131 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Pantheon: Quote:
Unless, I'm mistaken, isn't IMDB a user-built database too?
So, doesn't the person inputting data have to link names together? (With suggestions from IMDB? I'm not sure).
@surfeur - if you utilise the DVDProfiler Credited As system and then upload that information to the online database, surely that would rectify the problem you have?
To use your example...here are the CLT results:
CLT results:
François Berléand=138
Francois Berleand=19
So, there are 19 titles in the database that are wrong. If THOSE 19 were corrected - either against the credits or by using Credited As - the problem is solved. Then whenever a new François Berléand is added to the database it can also be corrected.
I realise you would like us to just follow cultural naming rules; but INVELOS have said we can't do that. So, the only way to achieve what you want is to make the Profiler database better.
That's what everyone who uses the Credited As function is trying to do. It's not perfect, but it's all we have at the moment; so surely you could just make the best of it?
Every time you spot the need for a Credited As (that is supported by the CLT) then submit it to the database. It might take longer than our lifetimes; but it's the only way to improve things. The problem with that is that the common name is not always the accented name that he wants once the screen credits are fixed in the CLT. Recent examples, common name for André Maranne is now Andre Maranne, Luis Guzmán is now Luis Guzman. I wouldn't be surprised if Francois Berleand becomes the common name if the profile credits actually match the on-screen. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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