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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More abuse of group dividers: song writing credits? |
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| Author |
Message |
  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Examples like "make-up for <actor name>" and "<any kind of original material name> written by" are different because they lack the header structure. No they're not. They're not different, and better yet, in many cases (especially for those OMB-credits) they don't even lack the header structure, but are presented in the exact same way. The simple fact remains that the title of a song doesn't equal a "crew team". | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
The simple fact remains that the title of a song doesn't equal a "crew team". A Visual Effects company isn't a crew team either. It's the company where the the crew team is working for. In that reasoning you can always find a way to exclude something. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | <sigh> I give up on discussing this. Suffice to say that I don't believe dividers should be used to list titles of songs, titles of any "original material" or any other further specification of jobs that really belong in the custom role name file. Like others have stated in this thread, and supported by the poll results, I don't see the rules allowing this and I will continue to vote against it without hesitation. |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Examples like "make-up for <actor name>" and "<any kind of original material name> written by" are different because they lack the header structure.
No they're not. They're not different, and better yet, in many cases (especially for those OMB-credits) they don't even lack the header structure, but are presented in the exact same way. Like I said before, when the OMB-credits are credited in a header-like structure then it is indeed possible to use dividers. How the rules are written now it is allowed. I think I won't use dividers for the OMB credits though. But I wouldn't vote no. I have yet to see film credits in which the use of OMB dividers would enter valuable information to the db. The use of dividers for Song Titles are useful for many reasons already given in this topic. | | | | Cor |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
<sigh> I give up on discussing this. Suffice to say that I don't believe dividers should be used to list titles of songs, titles of any "original material" or any other further specification of jobs that really belong in the custom role name file. Like others have stated in this thread, and supported by the poll results, I don't see the rules allowing this and I will continue to vote against it without hesitation. You still haven't answered CharlieM's question: Quoting CharlieM: Quote:
So if a song writer is credited for 2 separate songs, how do you credit
Song A
Written by 1 and 2
Song B
Written by 1 and 3
is it
1 as song writer
2 as song writer
1 as song writer
3 as song writer
with no context, it seems a little silly
or do we only credit like this
1 as song writer
2 as song writer
3 as song writer
which doesn't mirror the credits
or do we credit
Song A
1 as song writer
2 as song writer
Song B
1 as Song Writer
2 as song Writer
which would give context and "mirror the credits
As far as crew groupings go, your sound editor is not the same example.
Charlie | | | | Cor |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
You still haven't answered CharlieM's question No need, as we've discussed that so many times here in the forums already - the consensus is to use: 1 as song writer 2 as song writer 3 as song writer I'm sure you don't agree with that either, but there's not much I can do about that. I maintain that the title of a song doesn't equal a "crew team". As such, I feel dividers can't be used for this - instead, it can be tracked in the custom role name field. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Edited by, produced by, screenplay by are all roles. Just like Lyrics By, Written By etc.
Song Titles aren't part of the roles. True, but aren't they also a "group" or "crew team"? I mean, they are grouped and, in the case of a credit like 'Written by John Smith and Paul Sanders & Joan Sanders', the last two are a writing team...unless you are saying that the "group" or "crew team" has to be preceeded by a header of some kind.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Edited by, produced by, screenplay by are all roles. Just like Lyrics By, Written By etc.
Song Titles aren't part of the roles.
True, but aren't they also a "group" or "crew team"? I mean, they are grouped and, in the case of a credit like 'Written by John Smith and Paul Sanders & Joan Sanders', the last two are a writing team...unless you are saying that the "group" or "crew team" has to be preceeded by a header of some kind. That would be what i would say. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
And again, the name of the work/product isn't a role. The role is the type of work (song writer, composer, music, lyrics). Examples like "make-up for <actor name>" and "<any kind of original material name> written by" are different because they lack the header structure. Please be so kind as to show me, in the rules, where a 'header structure' is required? I have looked, and the only place I can find it is in the section of the rules I quoted earlier in this thread. This is a common cast credit... Soldiers John Smith Jane Doe George Jones ...that doesn't use a 'header structure' yet, per Ken's clarification, uses a divider. So color me . | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
The simple fact remains that the title of a song doesn't equal a "crew team".
A Visual Effects company isn't a crew team either. It's the company where the the crew team is working for. In that reasoning you can always find a way to exclude something. Except that the rules, for crew, tell us that this example is exactly what the crew dividers are to be used for. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
And again, the name of the work/product isn't a role. The role is the type of work (song writer, composer, music, lyrics). Examples like "make-up for <actor name>" and "<any kind of original material name> written by" are different because they lack the header structure.
Please be so kind as to show me, in the rules, where a 'header structure' is required? I have looked, and the only place I can find it is in the section of the rules I quoted earlier in this thread.
This is a common cast credit...
Soldiers John Smith
Jane Doe
George Jones
...that doesn't use a 'header structure' yet, per Ken's clarification, uses a divider. So color me . There is no rule that says header-structure only. There is a rule that says: "Wherever possible, these groupings should mirror the film credits." The dividers mirror the header-structure. I've never said there is a rule about the so called header-structure. | | | | Cor |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Quoting T!M:
Quote:
The simple fact remains that the title of a song doesn't equal a "crew team".
A Visual Effects company isn't a crew team either. It's the company where the the crew team is working for. In that reasoning you can always find a way to exclude something.
Except that the rules, for crew, tell us that this example is exactly what the crew dividers are to be used for. I think you are referring to the following rule: Quote:
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name. The bolted part had to be entered or else we couldn't even enter company names as a divider. It doesn't state that the crew divider is solely used for company names. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Dan W | | Registered: May 9, 2002 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 980 |
| | Posted: | | | | Why don't you just vote "NO" on the profile with an explanation and move on? | | | | Dan |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
I think you are referring to the following rule:
Quote:
List individual credits only, not company name credits. Exception: If a company name heads a group of crew, use the Group divider to enter the company name.
The bolted part had to be entered or else we couldn't even enter company names as a divider. It doesn't state that the crew divider is solely used for company names. I agree with this, that rule only tells us where we are allowed to enter company names, in no way does it suggest that that is the only time we are allowed to use dividers in the crew section. The rules are quite clear, we are to use dividers for any logical grouping mirroring the credits where possible. Most song credits do exactly that in my experience. Of course everyone is entitled to vote how they interpret the rules, but in my interpretation using group dividers for song titles is perfectly allowed with the way the rules are currently written. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,819 |
| | Posted: | | | | Linked to this subject...when these sorts of things are discussed and a majority is reached (putting aside that polls are meaningless and are NOT the word of Invelos)...don't you think it is only common sense to send a PM to contributors if using one of these threads as a reason to vote NO?
I recently added song dividers (because I think they should be used) and got no votes. Thankfully, I am someone who checks my votes so I can correct any errors I make. However, not all users do this.
So, a simple PM pointing to the thread in question would bring it to the contributor's attention.
I had no idea about this thread and would have left my contribution as it stood if I hadn't seen the NO votes.
Common sense and a little courtesy are required imo. |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am now starting to like the use of dividers to denote the songs that the song writers wrote.
I think it adds more detail about exactly what song they wrote, especially in films in which more than one original song was written for. Without the dividers the song writers just becomes a long list of names without any context other than that they wrote a song for the movie.
So in my view just as the sound and visual effects company dividers adds value in that it lets me know what companies they worked for, same thing for song writers. Otherwise one might look at a song writer credit in a profile and assume that they wrote ALL the original songs for the movie, just like the composer composed ALL the music for the film. Whereas they only wrote one (perhaps a few) of the original songs for the film in reality. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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