So if the "burned-in" text overlays are only relevant for a 10 second conversation in a 90 minute movie, and I have no control whether this text is displayed or not, you want to include this in the subtitle section of Profiler.

If this is what you are proposing, then I am strongly against it.

If this is irrelevant to what you are proposin then I apologize.

Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:

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Quoting Woola:

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Subtitles, Ace are listed on menus. Note CC is not a subritle, it is CC. Some Subtitles are easter Eggs. If tyou wantto deal with forced subs such as I described, they are not Subtitles of the DVD but of the film and appear only under special circumstances, so they would require an attribute properly defining them fopr what they are. Itis very simple Ace, subs are an attribute of the DVD and on the menus or sometimes as an Easter Egg and SDH is also a sub and has nothing to do with CC, which remains a Feature because of some special characteristics.

You seem to want to introduce some new film-based characteristics without defining their attributes and simply rolling them into Subs which will result in unclear data and confusion.

Skip

You make a could point about CC. I consider them to be excluded under my proposed rule about ordinary means as many kinds of players can't access these.

However, I don't see where you're coming from. Subtitles are displayed on screen over the movie but are separate from the photography. This has nothing to do with movie vs. DVD. (And with all the credits stuff, I'm not sure thsi argument holds anymore anyway.) It's just the definition of subtitle. The question is if a speaker of the relevant language watches the particular DVD, will they be able to understand it without understanding the audio. Whether the subtitles are generated by the player or burned in, they are still there and it makes little difference to the end user. (except to the ability to turn them off, which player-generated subtitles may not have.) Trying to track some and not others, especially without any support in the rules, is being pedantic rather than trying to gather useful data.

Also, you still haven't said what to exclude. The question of the hour is whether menu-selectable subtitles that only translate signs and stuff should be tracked. Thsi isn't a theoretical question. A lot of Fox Blu-rays are like this.

Also, you still haven't said what to exclude. The question of the hour is whether menu-selectable subtitles that only translate signs and stuff should be tracked. Thsi isn't a theoretical question. A lot of Fox Blu-rays are like this.
I have given you the answer, Ace. Subs are menu selectable, they are attributes of the DVD. Your forced titkles are attributes of the movie, that could be tracked but it is NOT a Subtitle since it is an attribute of the movie. So IF you want forced titles  then we have to come up with a definable attribute SEPARATE from Subtitles, perhaps simply a Forced Subtitle and i don't thinjk we need a bunch of checkboxes, I can't think of very many instances where i have seen multiple language Forced subs, they seem to pick one ot two for specific instances in the film, many times only ONCE. But in reality, Ace, I consider what you propose to be of very little consequence and of very little added value.  Does information that tells me that The Dirty Dozen uses SOME forced German dialog to English Subs really add anything , in general I would say No, I would also say that if I did feel it important to ME, I could handle it through Notes or Tags, because I really don't believe it adds very much imn general, it is very user-specific I think.

I think B&W is valuable information for ME, Ken thus far has not felt it is, so...OK, I create a Tag for B&W and check it when I need to. I can search on it and find all my B&W films and so forth. I am constantly amazed that people want all their interests acknowledged instead of simply saying Ok i want this and it is not a Sub, the program doesn't do it, and shouldn't without some additional clarification of the data, which may not be oof intyerest to many or wiorth the effort, so how can I achieve the desired result for myself. Ace, it's kind of like the whole thing about Personal videos Online, the only person interested in your Disney World Video vacation is YOU, I don't think Charlie would see it Online and say wow I want ot have Ace's Disney Vacation Video, I wonder if he'll send me a copy.

I love giving an answer and being told i haven't. I have yet to see a Menu-selectable in BD or DVD, Ace. You claim they are common in Fox, not tomy experience yet. If forced subs or Menu selectable, then thiose need to addressed in some form and i would probably say add a Forced checkbox , though unfortunately that won't help mucjh, as it would not be able to tell you exactly what the forced Sub was, only that there is one. But note it HAS to be menu selectabl which i have not yet seen, you claim they are out there and i am accepting that.

But film based forced subs, which most of what I know about are, I would have to say NO without some very serious thought.

BTW Ace, since I haven't seen them, if they are menu selectable what are they called, anything special like English SDh or are they just one oof many Subtitle possibilities. If it's the former, then we need to know what that is, if it's the latter then they would be included with the rest making this all academic.

Skip

Quoting Ace_of_Sevens:

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Quoting CharlieM:

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So if the "burned-in" text overlays are only relevant for a 10 second conversation in a 90 minute movie, and I have no control whether this text is displayed or not, you want to include this in the subtitle section of Profiler.

If this is what you are proposing, then I am strongly against it.

If this is irrelevant to what you are proposin then I apologize.

Are you responding to me or Skip? I don't think that's what either of us are proposing. I am saying if the whole movie is subtitled, it should be checked regardless of how you get to the subtitles so long as they are accessible by ordinary means. If only text or certain dialogue is subtitled, it should not be checked.

Skip seems to be saying subtitles should only be included if they are menu accessible. He doesn't seem sure of what his position is on menu-accessible subtitles that don't subtitle the whole movie.

Your hypothetical wouldn't seem to fall under either idea.

To some degre this is correct, Ace. If it is Menu accessible then i fundamentally support it as a Sub. That said, you have raised a couple of questions in my mind. I welll aware of English SDH, for example and SOMETIMES there are both standard English subs as well as English SDH, ot always buy sometimes. At present we can't delineate English SDH, this should not be a problem except that I have this horrible feeling that while I have not seen or heard of them, it is reasonnable to presume that there may be French SDH or german or whatever. Which would have me saying we don't to duplicate every SDH plus every subtitle. So you have an SDH checkbox, but now we would have to have a way to associate the the SDH with a language to have any meaning, and is this complicated if there are both English subs and English SDH. Similarly wit what you are talking about are these Suns you ared describing menu selectable and if they are are they simply Xlanguage sub or do they ahve a name, for example French dubbed or French forced , these are details which could be very, if not all important.

But fundamentally I look to the menus, tjose are the characteristics associated with the Disc. Anything would be a film attribute which could be accounted for but would have to done through a different type of attribute to keep it separate from the Subtitle attribute for the Disc. What to call such a characteristic? That sounds fun.

Skip

Quoting Danae Cassandra:

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My opinion, for what it's worth.  And only my opinion.

Normal subtitles translate what is said on screen into the language chosen.  They are present throughout the entire film.  These fall into three general categories:
- Menu Selectable (often in more than one language)
- Burned in (cannot select, single language - in my collection, Kizuna, apparently also a feature of a lot of cheaper releases of HK movies)
- SDH (for the hearing impaired, likely include more than just language transcription, generally replaces the old Closed Captioning)

IMO, all of these should be included in the profile as subtitles - and SDH should be an option to chose (it is not currently).

Uncommon subtitles are almost always selectable through menus (never seen them not to be, but I'm sure there's something out there).  Some I've seen include:
- Transcribe foreign signs & such seen on screen (seen in several anime)
- Trivia or humourous subtitles (seen at least on Excel Saga, likely elsewhere since Trivia is listed as a subtitle option)
- Other (rare, at least to me, but for instance Rocky Horror has a selectable subtitle track where the cues for audience participation will display)
- Music Only (I'm certain I've seen this in anime somewhere, but can't come up with an example off the top of my head)

Each of these is a menu-selectable option I have seen in a DVD in my collection.  Should these be listed?  I would say yes, if there was a way to distinguish them from Normal subtitles.

And then there is the variety of subtitle where you have, say, a movie in English but briefly someone talks in another language and that is translated for you for that scene alone.  This should not be included as a subtitle option.

Again, just my opinion.

I agree on everything you said, you seem to read my mind
Menu selectable only is a NO-GO, as tons of HK-DVDs have the subtitles for the whole film burned into the print.

cheers
Donnie

Quoting Woola:

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2) Settings via Player-These are generally going to be covered by Easter Eggs

Just to be sure...you seriously claim that subtitles that are selectable by using DVD players subtitle button are hidden easter eggs and therefore should NOT be listed as subtitles?

Quoting Kulju:

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Quoting Woola:

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2) Settings via Player-These are generally going to be covered by Easter Eggs

Just to be sure...you seriously claim that subtitles that are selectable by using DVD players subtitle button are hidden easter eggs and therefore should NOT be listed as subtitles?

YES and as I noted elsewhere fi I recall correctly the last time this was dicussed it was agreed that Forced Titles were not subtitles.

Skip

Please give me some examples where subtitles are easter eggs.

The rules state:
You may list up to 32 subtitles.

That is all. It does not say anywhere that we cannot include subtitle tracks that are burnt in, or accessible only via your remote or deck. I will continue to add them at every opportunity as it does not state anywhere not to. A subtitle track is a subtitle track, no matter how it's accessed. Thanks.