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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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| Registered: April 2, 2007 |  Posts: 156 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
The Music for 2001 is not contributable today...maybe tomorrow. at least, here we agree! But I was talking about "The Magic Flute". That is completely different. (In my mind) As you stated earlier that more people than me was "interested in music from 1791" I, at least, hope you have enjoyed the "not creditable" Amadeus, and the discussed "Magic Flute" (multiple versions!)  | | | | Karsten |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Of course, Karsten, but unfortunately right now we aren't there.
There were three problems when this was discussed from a Rules point of view when this was discussed years ago.
(1) They should probably be called something else to discriminate between them and ORIGINAL Music. But what?
(2) Allowing them to be entered could also openthe door to inclusion of any and all Music, including songs that were not written for the film but were included in the Soundtrack and as I am sure you are aware some of these listings can get rather lengthy. Again, one could make an argument that data regarding "Rock Around the Clock" is valuable as it pertains to the film but....we had to draw the line somewhere.
(3)The focus was on capturing data that qualified for Award consideration, and unfortunately Classics do nto qualify, nor do the mass listings of non-original Songs.
Now if this were to be done we would have some things to contend with:
(1)What to call these fields, OMB would not be good but maybe headed the right direction.
(2)What should be included to lend value to this data, simply capturing the Author does not seem to be completely useful to me, unless the entire film used only the music of Mozart. But for films such as 2001, I would think it would be good to not only list Richard Strauss, but also "Also Sprake Zarathrusta" as the title. Similarly for non-original songs, I would think the performers are as important as both the title and the Authors, I also think the performers are of interest to us in an Original Song vein, irt seems to me to be useful information that Shirley Bassey sings Goldfinger. But that's me
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | You've addressed most of the valid points, Skip. But I am interested in one that karsten brought up that wasn't addressed.
What is the difference between these credits for composer?
- Prokofiev for Romeo and Juliet (a ballet on DVD performed by Fonteyn & Nureyev)
- Mozart for The Magic Flute (assuming the film is simply a filming of the opera)
and
- Andrew Lloyd Webber for Phantom of the Opera
- Richard Rogers for The Sound of Music
- Leonard Bernstein for West Side Story
All of the last group are films based on Broadway musicals (as I'm sure you know) and have those men listed as Composer in their profiles.
So is there a difference? And if so, what? I don't see one, but perhaps there is one that I'm missing... | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't think there is a difference from a profiler viewpoint, Cass. Keeping in mind that the original purpose was to deal potential Award winning data (relative to film, of course), then i think all the possibilities youmetioned basically fall into the same category, the question would be what to call it. Obviously if we used the term Composer, even if it was in a separate category, we begin to run the risk of confusion. And as I said, just how far do we want to carry this, no fense to Karsten, but just as he brings up a valid issue and tries to drive it home, someone else would not doubt be a fan of all the Songs (Original or Not) for a given film and begin the same "rant"  , and it would be equally valid. To be honest, I don't know what the answer is, and again this would be something that would largely be fixed with completely open creds, with some tweaking to be able to include Titles and Performers. I basically take the same approach we did all those years ago, which was to deal with Original (Award-potential) Music and Songs, given the current system the line had to be drawn somewhere; and particularly with the addition of Other Roles within each category these can easily be managed on a user-by-user basis and still not Contributed. I see enough data being shoehorned into variouys places without adding even more and weakening the context and definition of the data further. Unless we move to Open Creds. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
***
All of the last group are films based on Broadway musicals (as I'm sure you know) and have those men listed as Composer in their profiles.
So is there a difference? And if so, what? I don't see one, but perhaps there is one that I'm missing... There is no difference as none of those fit the meaning of the term 'Original Score'. I do, however, believe this is an important credit to track...though I am not sure what it would be called.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 9, 2007 |  Posts: 1,536 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
There is no difference as none of those fit the meaning of the term 'Original Score'. I do, however, believe this is an important credit to track...though I am not sure what it would be called. How about Dead Composer vs. Live Composer? That may require occasional updating of course...  Something similar may solve the definition of "classic" in another current thread on the forum. | | | | Hans | | | | Last edited: by Staid S Barr |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | That won't work. Keep the films in context. At the time The King and I was filmed, I believe both Richard Rodgers and Oscar Hammerstein II were still very much alive. So that had nothing to do the music being based on the Broadway musical and not Original to the film. Etc, etc, etc. I hate it because I am concerned about confusion but it just might work. Composer (Original Score) Composer (Non-Original Score) However this does begin to deal with the remainder of the argument as it relates to film, that being Original Songs, Non-original Songs along with Performers. If we are going to consider this we better go all the way, else somebody will say "But what about....?" Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,029 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting karstenp: Quote:
Well, what about, let's say, Mozart's Magic Flute. The Score IS hundreds of years old, but still ORIGINAL. Eg. in Branagh's adaptation it is Mozart's composition that is used.
So IMHO this is not definite. In my example Mozart qualifies as "Composer", but other "part use" of the score may not qualify. ( Independent of timeframe since composing... ) I agree with you. For a DVD of "The Magic Flute", I wouldn't hesitate a second to list Mozart with a composer credit. | | | | Matthias |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | And it would be against the Rules, Mathias, and should be voted NO!!!!!!!!!!!!! Fro NOW.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | So basically, we have two kinds of crediting for composers - one of which it seems the majority want to list in Profiler, the other of which we don't.
Type 1: The use of a composer's work in a film. Examples include To Joy & Amadeus. The majority seem to see this as the same as using previously recorded songs in a film (like "The Times They are a Changin'" in Watchmen) and do not want to track these kinds of credits using the crew roles we have now.
Type 2: The filming of a composer's work. Examples include The Magic Flute & any DVD recording of a ballet, opera or symphony performance. This would also include any filming of a Broadway musical, like West Side Story or Phantom of the Opera, provided that it follows the score. It seems the majority want to track the composer in these cases.
For the Broadway productions, these composers are currently listed in their profiles as Composer. It's already been pointed out that there is no difference between Mozart & The Magic Flute and Rogers & Sound of Music - but I bet I would get a lot of 'no' votes if I go and remove Rogers and contribute that change. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Cass:
Type 1: You can track these locally but they are not at this time Contributable.
Type 2: I am not an expert on The Magic Flute, so I will relate to something I do know about. If there was a DVD of The King and I on Broadway then Rodgers and Hammerstein would be appropriate to list. The question becomes for me, is The Magic Flute a piece of Music which later inspired a play or was it actually written as a play or opera. Again something I am more familiar Tchaikovsky's Peter and the Wolf was a piece of music which later inspired a Disney Cartoon, Swan Lake OTOH was written as a ballet, I believe.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
For the Broadway productions, these composers are currently listed in their profiles as Composer. It's already been pointed out that there is no difference between Mozart & The Magic Flute and Rogers & Sound of Music - but I bet I would get a lot of 'no' votes if I go and remove Rogers and contribute that change. You might. It all depends on how you word your contribution notes. I am starting to wonder, though, why we can't use OMB for these credits. The film, in the case of a musical adaptation, or performance, in the case of a filmed performance, is based on the works of those composers. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | As far as The Magic Flute goes, it was originally written as an opera in 1791 by Mozart (composer) & Emanuel Schikaneder (librettist). I am not familiar with the film of it, so will not comment on it specifically. Perhaps Karsten could, since he indicated it follows the opera exactly. However I will comment on a couple in my collection - Romeo and Juliet (UPC 032031118393) - a filming of The Royal Ballet Company production starring Margot Fonteyn & Rudolph Nureyev. The ballet was written by Sergei Prokofiev in 1935. The Royal Ballet staged a production of it, which was filmed, in 1966. Prokofiev is listed - rightly, in my opinion - as Composer in the profile. The Nutcracker (UPC 032031292598) - a filming of The American Ballet Theatre doing Tchaikovsky's ballet (written 1892, staged for television in 1977) starring Mikhail Baryshnikov. Tchaikovsky is not currently listed as composer, but I will be inserting him (even if I keep it local). Again, it is the ballet. With both of those, it is not that the ballet inspired a film, it's that the ballet was filmed. In both cases, I would list the composer. However, I would not list Tchaikovsky for Fantasia or Sleeping Beauty as Composer, even though he currently is listed as such in those profile. As the Disney fan I know you are I'm certain here you're on familiar territory.  This is a case of the music 'inspiring' the creation of something else. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield | | | | Last edited: by Danae Cassandra |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting Danae Cassandra:
Quote:
For the Broadway productions, these composers are currently listed in their profiles as Composer. It's already been pointed out that there is no difference between Mozart & The Magic Flute and Rogers & Sound of Music - but I bet I would get a lot of 'no' votes if I go and remove Rogers and contribute that change.
You might. It all depends on how you word your contribution notes.
I am starting to wonder, though, why we can't use OMB for these credits. The film, in the case of a musical adaptation, or performance, in the case of a filmed performance, is based on the works of those composers. I like Musical Adaptation better than OMB. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
As far as The Magic Flute goes, it was originally written as an opera in 1791 by Mozart (composer) & Emanuel Schikaneder (librettist). I am not familiar with the film of it, so will not comment on it specifically. Perhaps Karsten could, since he indicated it follows the opera exactly.
However I will comment on a couple in my collection -
Romeo and Juliet (UPC 032031118393) - a filming of The Royal Ballet Company production starring Margot Fonteyn & Rudolph Nureyev. The ballet was written by Sergei Prokofiev in 1935. The Royal Ballet staged a production of it, which was filmed, in 1966. Prokofiev is listed - rightly, in my opinion - as Composer in the profile.
The Nutcracker (UPC 032031292598) - a filming of The American Ballet Theatre doing Tchaikovsky's ballet (written 1892, staged for television in 1977) starring Mikhail Baryshnikov. Tchaikovsky is not currently listed as composer, but I will be inserting him (even if I keep it local). Again, it is the ballet.
With both of those, it is not that the ballet inspired a film, it's that the ballet was filmed. In both cases, I would list the composer.
However, I would not list Tchaikovsky for Fantasia or Sleeping Beauty as Composer, even though he currently is listed as such in those profile. As the Disney fan I know you are I'm certain here you're on familiar territory. This is a case of the music 'inspiring' the creation of something else. I agree on all counts, Cass. Fantasia is a case in point where it is important to not only capture the Composers of the Non_original Music but the specific piece of music as well. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
I like Musical Adaptation better than OMB.
Skip OMB = Original Musical By.  Just kidding, I just came up with that.  | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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