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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Role Names for Interviewees |
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| Registered: March 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | First of all, I'd like to thank everyone for his or her input in this constructive discussion.  Unfortunately I've run out of greenies for today, but more are on the way.  From what I've seen so far, I think Kathy's proposal would be the best (most informative, avoids any misunderstanding as the Martian rightfully pointed out). However, I have some hesitation with regard to implementing it right away. For two reasons: 1. I'm not sure how to reconcile it with the rules as quoted by Pete, in particular these two parts: a) "If an actor is credited by name but does not have an associated role, you may use the film itself..." Here, the "actor" (interviewee) is indeed credited by name, but DOES have an associated role (or at least: an interview's equivalent for it), so the condition for applying this rule has not been met. b) "In each case, list Actor’s names and roles (when given) exactly as they are in the credits and in exactly the same order credited." Adding the Himself bit, which is not on screen, is not "exactly as they are in the credits". At the very least, it would require some bending of these rules to have Kathy's proposal fit in (at least the way I'm reading them). 2. IMHO it is unlikely that any fellow user who has not been involved in this discussion (or at least read it) will come up with Kathy's answer, whereas option 1 in my OP (although inferior) is quite straightforward and far more likely to be chosen by any fellow user who is unaware of this discussion. Implementing Kathy's idea right away would at this point lead to inconsistent data entry (I know, don't start laughing...  ) and possibly to prolonged battles over contributions along these lines. Now I'll be more than happy to start a thread in the Rules Committee to ask for an addition to the rules allowing Kathy's suggestion to cover this situation. Shall I proceed with that? | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I do see your point, and would support a change to the rules. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: October 6, 2008 | | Posts: 1,932 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think adding Himself, Herself, etc. to the role as credited would be a bad move, although I understand the desire for the context it would provide.
Some months ago I suggested a "Self" (or call it what you will) check box for instances where a person appears in that capacity. While this would require a program change, it would be far better than messing unnecessarily with onscreen credits.
Another problem with adding Himself/Herself to the role as credited, is that many docus have long descriptions of the interview subjects' qualifications and/or relationships to the subject, sometimes requiring abbreviation or even truncation of this useful data--the data that the filmmaker wants us to have. Adding explanatory data to the field would exacerbate this problem. | | | | Last edited: by CalebAndCo |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CalebAndCo: Quote:
I think adding Himself, Herself, etc. to the role as credited would be a bad move, although I understand the desire for the context it would provide.
Some months ago I suggested a "Self" (or call it what you will) check box for instances where a person appears in that capacity. While this would require a program change, it would be far better than messing unnecessarily with onscreen credits.
Another problem with adding Himself/Herself to the role as credited, is that many docus have long descriptions of the interview subjects' qualifications and/or relationships to the subject, sometimes requiring abbreviation or even truncation of this useful data--the data that the filmmaker wants us to have. Adding explanatory data to the field would exacerbate this problem. You make some very valid points. A check box would be most helpful but would not be implemented in the foreseeable future. I know that lack of space is a problem in several areas of this program. Does anyone have any ideas that would solve these problems? For example, as Pete noted, documentaries are self explanatory as far as "self" is concerned. Maybe there could be a note added to Collected Statements from Invelos regarding this issue. Something along the lines of: For Documentaries only: Do not add "Himself" or "Herself" in Role documentation. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Kathy: Quote:
You make some very valid points. Indeed he does. I don't own a lot of documentaries, so I can go either way on this...though I do think it should be included in the rules so that there is no confusion. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar | | | | Last edited: by TheMadMartian |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting CalebAndCo: Quote:
I think adding Himself, Herself, etc. to the role as credited would be a bad move, although I understand the desire for the context it would provide.
Some months ago I suggested a "Self" (or call it what you will) check box for instances where a person appears in that capacity. While this would require a program change, it would be far better than messing unnecessarily with onscreen credits.
Another problem with adding Himself/Herself to the role as credited, is that many docus have long descriptions of the interview subjects' qualifications and/or relationships to the subject, sometimes requiring abbreviation or even truncation of this useful data--the data that the filmmaker wants us to have. Adding explanatory data to the field would exacerbate this problem. Caleb: I presume this check box would be used if no such On Screen Role is provided. I don't want to see it changed if the Role reads Himself/Herself. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 20, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,851 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
What is on screen during the commentary is not a credit, it is an informative subtitle, as sometimes in movies, we have information about where the action takes place. For me the only way to enter this information is :
Dominic Lieven : Himself (uncredited)
If he is in the credits at the end of documentary, just type the information as on screen in those credits, not during the documentary. This seems the correct way to me also. --------------- |
| | Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VirusPil: Quote:
Just the "person" as himself.
No role, because they have no role. Addition: Depending if the film has end credits or not, I would mark as uncredited. Part from the rule: Quote:
If a film has no end credits, but does have actors credited elsewhere, enter the actors from those credits. End credits, with not listed interviewees: uncredited. No end credits: credited. Sounds strange, but this is how I understand it. |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VirusPil: Quote:
No end credits: credited.
I really don't think those informations inside a documentary are to be considered as credits. Look at those images from "Winged Migration" : birds (which are, in fact the "actors" of the movie), are named by such type of information, and are not in the end credits (there is no cast list). As we sometimes credit dogs or lions in movies, why not those birds, if we follow the Dominic Lieven example. It just sounds ridiculous for me.   | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,018 |
| | Posted: | | | | I wouldn't consider these to be credits either, Yves. However this is not what I was talking about; I was talking about interviewees in a documentary where you see the person being interviewed with subtitles providing his or her name and "capacity" (as in my example: "Dominic Lieven" (first subtitle line) and "Biographer of Nicholas II" (second subtitle line)). And I do consider this to be a credit - not standard credits as the rules define them, but still a credit ("credited elsewhere", in the rules' words). Never saw a bird being interviewed in a documentary...  | | | | Last edited: by dee1959jay |
|   | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
I wouldn't consider these to be credits either, Yves. However this is not what I was talking about; I was talking about interviewees in a documentary where you see the person being interviewed with subtitles providing his or her name and "capacity" (as in my example: "Dominic Lieven" (first subtitle line) and "Biographer of Nicholas II" (second subtitle line)). And I do consider this to be a credit - not standard credits as the rules define them, but still a credit ("credited elsewhere", in the rules' words).
Never saw a bird being interviewed in a documentary... Indeed. The subtitles on these screen caps aren't really credits but more like info. My French isn't great so I don't know the exact meaning of these subtitles. But the name of regions, mountains etc. aren't credits. And the birds aren't named by a given name but by the name of the species. In films dogs and cats are credited by their given names and sometimes with the associated role also. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting dee1959jay: Quote:
Never saw a bird being interviewed in a documentary... Those birds are the main cast of the movie, just as are the lions in "Two Brothers" (in this case, they are credited). | | | | Images from movies |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
And the birds aren't named by a given name but by the name of the species. Well, something like Singing swans : Themselves, in Siberian Toundra is not different from : Dominic Lieven: Himself, Biographer of Nicholas II but is exactly what I do not want to have in my database. | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
And the birds aren't named by a given name but by the name of the species.
Well, something like
Singing swans : Themselves, in Siberian Toundra is not different from :
Dominic Lieven: Himself, Biographer of Nicholas II
but is exactly what I do not want to have in my database. Humans: Themselves We don't enter this either, do we? We don't enter species. If you know the given name for one of these birds you could enter him/her as uncredited? Dominic Lieven is a given name for the person that is being interviewed in this documentary. Remember that a documentary is staged as well, being it in a different form than a feature film but still staged. Persons within a documentary (film) are actors (definitely in the theoretical sense, but I think also in general). They are not stage actors. Toto as Toto in The Wizard of Oz (a given name) Bonzo as Dog etc. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Registered: March 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Dominic Lieven is a person's given name that is being interviewed in this documentary.
Yes, but he is not credited. We know him by a subtitle. As soon as you consider subtitles as credits, you cannot choose which subtitles are credits and which are not. If subtitles are credits, so those birds (which were trained specially for the movie as shown in the making of) are credited by species, as on screen, and should be entered as they are credited. What I want to show is that considering subtitles as credits opens a door to many problems, and we can be sure to have hundreds pages of discussions as soon as a new type of subtitle will allow someone to add something in the database, increasing his contribution score (all what matters, doesn't ?). | | | | Images from movies | | | | Last edited: by surfeur51 |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Dominic Lieven is a person's given name that is being interviewed in this documentary.
Yes, but he is not credited. We know him by a subtitle. As soon as you consider subtitles as credits, you cannot choose which subtitles are credits and which are not. If subtitles are credits, so those birds (which were trained specially for the movie as shown in the making of) are credited by species, as on screen, and should be entered as they are credited.
What I want to show is that considering subtitles as credits opens a door to many problems, and we can be sure to have hundreds pages of discussions as soon as a new type of subtitle will allow someone to add something in the database, increasing his contribution score (all what matters, doesn't ?). But uncredited makes no sense either because he is credited in the documentary but not like the way we are used to. The rules don't ask us to take if from the standard end credits only if there are cast credits elsewhere that aren't credited in the end credits. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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