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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Multiple cuts in one release |
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| Registered: March 13, 2007 |  Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | LOL, Goblins, pointing out the dreaded If Then. The Rules were designed to be simple and they are. The problem though is that everybody can point to their favorite exception and claim that it should be handled in some way that THEY want it to be. Ultimately that undermines the Rules, and before long we are back to users creating their own interpretations in order to manipulate the database the way Tthey want it to appear. Having been around as long as I have I remember what that used to be like. If/Thens are the bane of any database designers existence because all it does it unnecessarily complicate things and making things harder for users. That is not to say that you can completely do away with conditional statements, sometimes as hard as you try you simply can't, but you do try to keep them to a minimum.
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | And I always thought it was easy.  If it comes on a different disc (this would include the backside of a flipper, because it has a unique DiscID) it's a bonus film and therefore to be entered as a child profile. All else: enter it as "Other"-bonus features. It's a conditional clause, yes, but, as stated before, I don't see much room for interpretation. | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm still not sure how to deal with this. For instance: I've got a 2-disc set which has the theatrical version of 'Almost Famous' on disc one, and the director's cut of the film, which isn't even titled 'Almost Famous', but 'Untitled' instead, is on disc two. Each has it's own set of bonus materials. There are huge differences in running times, audio tracks and subtitles as well. But most importantly: there are actual differences in the credits: cast and crew are *not* the same.
Currently, the set has proper child profiles for each disc, with the appropriate data for the corresponding version, but the parent profile has the crew from the theatrical version, the cast list is a mixture from both, and it lists the audio tracks and subtitles of both (meaning, for instance, that it shows two "English Dolby Digital 5.1" tracks, one for each disc). In short: the parent is a mess. Yet attempts to address this have failed, since different parties don't agree how it SHOULD be handled... Some feel the parent needs to have the data for the theatrical version from disc one, some feel it should have the data for the (longer) 'Untitled' Cut from disc two, some feel the current mixture is fine as is, and some feel it should be an empty box set profile with two children. Thoughts?
Again: two cuts of the same film on two discs, but with big differences in running time, audio tracks, subtitles, features, and, most importantly, differences in cast and crew. How do we handle that? | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: May 19, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 6,730 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Again: two cuts of the same film on two discs, but with big differences in running time, audio tracks, subtitles, features, and, most importantly, differences in cast and crew. How do we handle that? This would fall under the "Bonus Film"-section of the rules. Since you mentionend "Almost Famous", at the moment I'm correcting the german profile of the 2-Disc Edition (Which I messed up too ) to match the rules. Means: parent profile gets all the data of the theatrical release (main feature), the child profile (via DiscID) gets the data of the extended version (bonus film) | | | It all seems so stupid, it makes me want to give up!
But why should I give up, when it all seems so stupid?
Registrant since 05/22/2003 |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,722 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting goblinsdoitall: Quote:
This would fall under the "Bonus Film"-section of the rules.
Since you mentionend "Almost Famous", at the moment I'm correcting the german profile of the 2-Disc Edition (Which I messed up too ) to match the rules. Means: parent profile gets all the data of the theatrical release (main feature), the child profile (via DiscID) gets the data of the extended version (bonus film) Okay then, I'll try to fix my copy like that as well. Thanks! | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
OK, Unicus, let me ask you this. The purpose of the Bonus Feature Film, is to deal with films which may be the SAME title but NOT the same film. Such as Ben-Hur and Ben-Hur (1925). These fall outside of that parameter, so....give me an argument. 
Skip That may have been how it started out, but it has come a long way since then. First, the rule says. "The term "Bonus Feature Film" is used to define any feature film that is included as part of the bonus material for a single release." While Ben Hur is given as an example, the examples given aren't all inclusive. Any feature film that is included, as a bonus, qualifies. Second, we are already using this feature for DVD versions of the same film, that are included with a Blu-ray release...per Gerri's instructions here. I don't see it as a stretch to include different cuts, when they are on their own disc, as well...but that's me. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
Cass:
That isn't what the Rules say. For brazil, they say to use the longest cut, they don't allow for user-interpretation of 48 extra minutes makes it a totally different film.
Skip The rule you are refering to deals with branching titles, or those with multiple versions on the same disc. If each version has it's own disc, as is the case with Brazil, that rule does not apply. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 1,946 |
| | Posted: | | | | Skip,
The only thing I could think of info I really like, is the Runtime. But as T!M mentioned, audio tracks and subtitles may differ also.
On the other hand, I can see users not wanting extra profiles.
My suggestion is to make it as for TV series:
Add all info for the longest cut to the parent profile. Allow optional child profiles for each cut of the movie. | | | View my collection at http://www.chriskepolis.be/home/dvd.htm
Chris |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,878 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have to agree with Unicus & cvermeylen. I don't see the stretch of including different cuts as bonus features when they're presented on separate discs. I didn't make the profile of Brazil, but nonetheless I would have done it the same way. While I don't see Supergirl as box set, I also don't see a problem with including the shorter cut as a bonus profile. If one didn't want the profile in one's database, one wouldn't have to download it. But it would be there for those that did.
Just one point ... I still think that releases like Last Chance Harvey that came with two discs, one widescreen and one fullscreen and no other differences, should be a single profile. Different cuts are one sort of animal (I could envision a set release of all 3 cuts of Alexander, which are all available separately right now...) but if the only difference is the inclusion of a pan&scan disc, that doesn't make a different cut. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: February 23, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,580 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting Jubal:
Quote:
OK, Unicus, let me ask you this. The purpose of the Bonus Feature Film, is to deal with films which may be the SAME title but NOT the same film. Such as Ben-Hur and Ben-Hur (1925). These fall outside of that parameter, so....give me an argument.
Skip
That may have been how it started out, but it has come a long way since then. First, the rule says. "The term "Bonus Feature Film" is used to define any feature film that is included as part of the bonus material for a single release." While Ben Hur is given as an example, the examples given aren't all inclusive. Any feature film that is included, as a bonus, qualifies.
Second, we are already using this feature for DVD versions of the same film, that are included with a Blu-ray release...per Gerri's instructions here. I don't see it as a stretch to include different cuts, when they are on their own disc, as well...but that's me. Quoting cvermeylen: Quote:
Skip,
The only thing I could think of info I really like, is the Runtime. But as T!M mentioned, audio tracks and subtitles may differ also.
On the other hand, I can see users not wanting extra profiles.
My suggestion is to make it as for TV series:
Add all info for the longest cut to the parent profile. Allow optional child profiles for each cut of the movie. Agreed on both accounts with what cvermeylen and Unicus say. You took the words right out of my mouth. Any additional movie (be it a different cut or the original of a remake) should be a child profile, I believe: - in the case of the original vs remake, we are dealing with a different movie with different credits - in the case of different cuts, various things might differ: credits, runtime, audio, subtitles, etc I also agree with Unicus that this falls under the "Bonus Feature Film" rule. | | | Blu-ray collection
DVD collection
My Games
My Trophies |
| | Registered: December 10, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,004 |
| | Posted: | | | | Several posters make an excellent point: The rule about choosing the longest version for running time clearly states it only appliers when all version of the film are on one disc. It is not made clear what to do when they are on separate discs in the rules. THe rules don't address this point.
To give another example of crew differences, the two cuts of Legend have different composers. This is also the case with one of the cuts of Dawn of the Dead. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Unicus69: Quote:
Quoting Jubal:
Quote:
OK, Unicus, let me ask you this. The purpose of the Bonus Feature Film, is to deal with films which may be the SAME title but NOT the same film. Such as Ben-Hur and Ben-Hur (1925). These fall outside of that parameter, so....give me an argument.
Skip
That may have been how it started out, but it has come a long way since then. First, the rule says. "The term "Bonus Feature Film" is used to define any feature film that is included as part of the bonus material for a single release." While Ben Hur is given as an example, the examples given aren't all inclusive. Any feature film that is included, as a bonus, qualifies.
Second, we are already using this feature for DVD versions of the same film, that are included with a Blu-ray release...per Gerri's instructions here. I don't see it as a stretch to include different cuts, when they are on their own disc, as well...but that's me. Unicus: Now you are stretching to encompass your particular interpretation. Ok, I don't want your interpretation, I want your argument. I have already answered the BD/DVD combo argument, THAT is two different formats in one case. I have explained thwe whole issue from top to bottom and this is not a Boxset per the Rules, nor does it fir the parameters of the Ben-Hur issue. So, please give me an argument not an interpretation which basically does nothing moer thanundermine and stretch the rules. Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: May 22, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 1,033 |
| | Posted: | | | | Another movie that has two versions is Dune. I think this is just done as one profile with no children but it brings up a lot of the differences that have been mentioned. Different audio options, I believe different subtitles, different runtimes, and different directors.
The disc is a flipper disc with one version on each side.
Another reason people may want to separate it out is to track watched by info separately for the different cuts.
-Agrare |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,201 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Jubal: Quote:
Unicus:
Now you are stretching to encompass your particular interpretation. Ok, I don't want your interpretation, I want your argument. I have already answered the BD/DVD combo argument, THAT is two different formats in one case. I have explained thwe whole issue from top to bottom and this is not a Boxset per the Rules, nor does it fir the parameters of the Ben-Hur issue. So, please give me an argument not an interpretation which basically does nothing moer thanundermine and stretch the rules.
Skip I never said it qualified as a box set, nor did I say it fit the parameters of the Ben Hur issue. The rules give two examples of 'bonus feature films' and say that they are "some examples." That means they are not the only examples. That being said, just like child profiles for TV series sets, I see no reason anybody would be against this. This method allows those that want them to download them, and those that don't to ignore them. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Unicus:
Listen to me. I have said I am still not sure what is appropriate here. I have explained everything i can explain and you justifying an interpretation. The interpretation is just that and it isn't correct, I am sorry i have explained that. So I am looking for your argument not your interpretation or your justification. I am trying to sort this out myself and there is some merit in some of what I have seen....
Skip | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 951 |
| | Posted: | | | | I would think the addition of additional child profiles ala the Bonus Feature film rule would work best. This allows for the main feature to be profiled yet any additional versions of the film could also be profiled as long as they were on separate discs and only downloaded if the user wanted it. As it should have no effect on the main profile.
Maybe Ken or Geri could weigh in how they want these types of releases handled. | | | Are you local?
This is a local shop the strangers you would bring would not understand us, our customs, our local ways. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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