Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
If you notice, the people who it isn't flying with are the newer users.  As I said, most of us who have been here a while, have been there and done that.  Since it is something that we can't change, we have decided to leave the brick wall alone and give our heads a rest.  Your heads are young and strong so, by all means, give that wall 'what for'. 

Sam - this is exatly how most of us feel, so well put by the martian, and it is a shame that your good intentions and ideas will fall on deaf ears. Don't beat yourself up over it.

Quoting Merrik:

Quote:
If things never changed because people stopped banging their heads against the wall, I'd hate to see where the world would be right now. My head's nice and thick  , I'll smack it twice as hard to make up for the bruised and battered.

If you can show me how banging my head against a brick wall, here in an internet forum for DVDs, will change the world, I am more than happy to start up again.  As it sits, I will save my head for more important things.

Yes, seriously.  As you said, this is a piddly internet forum for DVDs.  As such, I see no reason to stress over anything that happens here.  I used to, mind you, but no longer.

I don't mind a good debate...as long as it is civil.  There have been quite a few times when my mind has been changed or I have changed someone else's mind.  Nothing wrong with a good 'give and take'.

As to the rest, you're a fairly new user.  Come talk to me after you have been here for 10+ years.  Maybe then you will understand why we old timers have given up on changing Ken.  Oh, and we aren't arguing against change for the greater good, we are just offering you some insight based on many years of dealing with Profiler in hopes of sparing you some frustration.  Whether or not you use that insight is up to you.

Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
I don't mind a good debate...as long as it is civil.  There have been quite a few times when my mind has been changed or I have changed someone else's mind.  Nothing wrong with a good 'give and take'.

I disagree with your stance on issues more often than not, but I've never had any problem with the way you've handled your side of it.

Quote:
As to the rest, you're a fairly new user.  Come talk to me after you have been here for 10+ years.  Maybe then you will understand why we old timers have given up on changing Ken.  Oh, and we aren't arguing against change for the greater good, we are just offering you some insight based on many years of dealing with Profiler in hopes of sparing you some frustration.  Whether or not you use that insight is up to you.

Fairly new is subjective, I imagine. I may be posting now, but I've lurked a while before I started posting.

It's just troubling that not only have you (you in general here, I'm speaking to the mass that has quit) have given up. That's a pretty big silent statement on not just the forum, but Ken and company as well.

What sickens me more than people giving up on trying for a change is when a thread is started to help make things better, someone wants it shut. That truly is disgusting. Honestly, how negative does one have to be that the thought of a site potentially becoming positive is a threat to them?

I can see where you are coming from, Martian. I don't agree with it, but I can see how the frustration led to it. The part that bothers me, though, is not that you gave up, but you are asking others to do the same. I don't know, to me that just doesn't sit right.

Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:

Quote:
I can see where you are coming from, Martian. I don't agree with it, but I can see how the frustration led to it. The part that bothers me, though, is not that you gave up, but you are asking others to do the same. I don't know, to me that just doesn't sit right.

If that is what you think I have done, you have misread my posts.  I clearly said, in my above post, that I am not against change.  In fact, I still participate in the rules forum...I am actually right in the middle of rewriting the cast portion to eliminate some of the confusion found in the puppeteer thread.

You are correct, you have never said you are against change. It's the "don't bother" attitude that I don't agree with.

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from, and I know why you are probably there, but there is a definite "you guys shouldn't even bother" attitude coming from the long time users.

Yes, you've tried, that's cool, but negativity spews negativity and telling people not to bother, nothing can be changed, is negative.

(Whether or not it's true it's irrelevant. )

Quote:
I haven't given up on change, I have given up on changing Ken.  I know what the system is, and I do what I can within that system.  In addition, I have not advised anyone to give up.  I have simply explained that this is how Ken is, has been as long as I have been here, and I see no point in being frustrated or upset over the situation.

I liken it to people being shocked and upset when Roy was attacked by a tiger.  A tiger is a tiger, no matter how much you train it, it is still going to be a tiger.  Ken is a programmer.  No matter how hard he tries...and, to his credit, he has tried...he will always be a programmer.

I honestly don't have a comment for this. It's just pisspoor that you (and others) have been driven to this point.

Quoting Alien Redrum:

Quote:
Quoting TheMadMartian:

Quote:
Quoting Alien Redrum:

Quote:
I can see where you are coming from, Martian. I don't agree with it, but I can see how the frustration led to it. The part that bothers me, though, is not that you gave up, but you are asking others to do the same. I don't know, to me that just doesn't sit right.

If that is what you think I have done, you have misread my posts.  I clearly said, in my above post, that I am not against change.  In fact, I still participate in the rules forum...I am actually right in the middle of rewriting the cast portion to eliminate some of the confusion found in the puppeteer thread.

You are correct, you have never said you are against change. It's the "don't bother" attitude that I don't agree with.

Like I said, I understand where you are coming from, and I know why you are probably there, but there is a definite "you guys shouldn't even bother" attitude coming from the long time users.

Yes, you've tried, that's cool, but negativity spews negativity and telling people not to bother, nothing can be changed, is negative.

(Whether or not it's true it's irrelevant. )

Quote:
I haven't given up on change, I have given up on changing Ken.  I know what the system is, and I do what I can within that system.  In addition, I have not advised anyone to give up.  I have simply explained that this is how Ken is, has been as long as I have been here, and I see no point in being frustrated or upset over the situation.

I liken it to people being shocked and upset when Roy was attacked by a tiger.  A tiger is a tiger, no matter how much you train it, it is still going to be a tiger.  Ken is a programmer.  No matter how hard he tries...and, to his credit, he has tried...he will always be a programmer.

I honestly don't have a comment for this. It's just pisspoor that you (and others) have been driven to this point.

That is your view and welcome to it, Alien. But instead of trying to put people in a Box with semi harsh remarks. Perhaps those that you believe have been driven to this, have simply adopted an attitude of patience and wait and see. Ken is going to do what ken is going to do,and on his time frame not yours or mine, I have said many times that if I were Ken I would do a number of things differently, sometimes it is simply a matter of one programmer's philosophy versus another. If you lock two programmers in separate rooms and give them the same problem to solve, they will almost inevitably come back with two different approaches. This does not make one right and one wrong, it means they are simply two different approaches.

People carp about bill gates, all the time, yet Microsoft has become the vendor for the largest OS in the entire world. Sometimes pretty darn good, other times it'll make you retch. But that doesn't change the fact there is no close second, it's Microsoft. Like Gates or love him, one has to admire what he has achieved in past 25 years or so.

Just chill, pal, seriously. It has nothing to do with not seeing change and improvements. Speaking very personally, i sometimes get the feeling that instead of improving that some of you want to tear down the house and start over. That is a bad idea and sets a bad precedent, the next batch of disgruntled users will want to do the same thing. But improve, cool. There is always room for that, the Rules are not and never will be perfect. For one thing we don't control the data, and as any of us who have been colecting for any period of time, knows that the film industry is a moving target and constantly coming up with new "games" in credits , case types, whatever, puick your favorite piece of data...wait awhile and the industry will throw a monkey wrench at it.

Skip

Skip

Quoting Woola:

Quote:
That is your view and welcome to it, Alien. But instead of trying to put people in a Box with semi harsh remarks. Perhaps those that you believe have been driven to this, have simply adopted an attitude of patience and wait and see. Ken is going to do what ken is going to do,and on his time frame not yours or mine, I have said many times that if I were Ken I would do a number of things differently, sometimes it is simply a matter of one programmer's philosophy versus another. If you lock two programmers in separate rooms and give them the same problem to solve, they will almost inevitably come back with two different approaches. This does not make one right and one wrong, it means they are simply two different approaches.

Yeah, wait and see. I see where that has gotten you...nowhere.

It seems that everyone (with the exception of you, for the most part) agrees that there needs to be communication and some sort of change. The only difference is the some of the long time posters won't bother because they have been ignored for so long it's part of life. That's fine. Invelos' lack of response to their customers is wrong. Period. Plain and simple. You can defend it all you want, but you are wrong.

Quote:
People carp about bill gates, all the time, yet Microsoft has become the vendor for the largest OS in the entire world. Sometimes pretty darn good, other times it'll make you retch. But that doesn't change the fact there is no close second, it's Microsoft. Like Gates or love him, one has to admire what he has achieved in past 25 years or so.

Yeah, but you know what? If you have a problem, you can contact Microsoft. You might not like the results, but there is someone there to answer the phone. You aren't kept completely in the dark about whether or not anyone is listening.

That's actually a good analogy, because like Microsoft, Profiler is a great product. Unlike Microsoft, Profiler has zero customer support.

I am by no means criticizing Ken on the work he's done, and I never have. I have consistently said the product is quite solid. But if you are going to sell a product, don't sh it on the people that purchase it.

Quote:
Just chill, pal, seriously. It has nothing to do with not seeing change and improvements. Speaking very personally, i sometimes get the feeling that instead of improving that some of you want to tear down the house and start over. That is a bad idea and sets a bad precedent, the next batch of disgruntled users will want to do the same thing. But improve, cool. There is always room for that, the Rules are not and never will be perfect. For one thing we don't control the data, and as any of us who have been colecting for any period of time, knows that the film industry is a moving target and constantly coming up with new "games" in credits , case types, whatever, puick your favorite piece of data...wait awhile and the industry will throw a monkey wrench at it.

Skip

Skip

I know why you disagree. Everyone knows. But the fact doesn't change that the way the rules are written now is abysmal. They need a complete overall so they can be understood. Look at the contribution forum for a hint of that. There are unclear rules, rules that are buried in the forum but not on the rule page (where they should be) and half finished rules. You are completely tied to them, so you either can't see it or won't see it. I imagine it's a little of both.

Re-read the these threads with an open mind, pal, you'll see. You'll also see that very few people disagree with the fact that communication needs to happen. You can defend it all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that both "new" and "old" users would love to see it happen.