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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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Accented names in CLT |
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| Registered: March 29, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 4,479 |
| | Posted: | | | | In 2008, Ken made a clarification about the way to handle capitalized accented letters when converted to small letters, that ignore correct spelling of names in favor of simplicity for contributors. This made hundreds of names, that were entered correctly spelled during several years, suddenly wrong according to Invelos rules. Some of them were corrected per the rules during the last two years, some were not. In the same time, as the clarification was not put in the rules, and remainded hidden somwhere in the forum, some contributors submitted profiles with the correct spelling of actors, which were generally accepted. A recent poll in the contribution rules committee showed that a majority of users preferred a correct spelling for names. Nevertheless, Ken had no action after this poll, so that means that for now, things remain the same. The result is a lack of trust in CLT results that are suspect when the common name is the accented form. One of our greatest "common name" specialist explained this very clearly : Quoting T!M: Quote:
I've never ever had a problem with accented names. Luckily, we have a very simple and very clear ruling by Ken (paraphrasing: enter É as é and E as e), and additionally, there's the simple fact that accents are, generally speaking, rarely used in film credits. Therefore, accented common names are pretty rare as well. There are a few left - Penélope Cruz springs to mind, but even there "Penelope" is quickly closing in - but generally, every time you see an accented common name, you know that it's worth checking up on - chances are that it's wrong. I agree with T!M that accented common names are pretty rare (I should say less than 1% of names). Anyway, I have always considered this as a problem, even if some other users consider I give too much importance to this "tiny" problem. I personaly regret Ken's choices, but in order to allow the online database to match Ken's criteria, I'll open in the next days common name threads for actors who are in my collection, where the CLT results are suspect, as it was done (not by me) in the past for Andre (André) Maranne. I hope this action will help the consistency of the database, even if the price is spelling mistakes in actors' common names. | | | | Images from movies |
|   | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
I'll open in the next days common name threads for actors who are in my collection, where the CLT results are suspect, as it was done (not by me) in the past for Andre (André) Maranne. I hope this action will help the consistency of the database, even if the price is spelling mistakes in actors' common names. How about including a list of the titles you're looking to confirm in each of them, as has become the standard for these common name-finding threads? Maybe have a look at ninehours' Andre/André Maranne- thread you just referred to for a typical set-up... | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Just an idea: Could we add a note for those all-caps credits at verifiying a credit?
-> For the possibility Ken changes the "rule" for transformation of those credits, we would safe a lot of work, because we wouldn't have to check again.
Just because of my interest: What was the poll in votes (or percentage)? *No access*
Edit: removed first part of message, because of a wrong understanding of the intend of this thread and the following threads. | | | | Last edited: by VirusPil |
| | Registered: July 31, 2008 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,506 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting VirusPil: Quote:
Just because of my interest: What was the poll in votes (or percentage)? *No access* As of right now - Quote:
Yes, I want to use the proper conversion method = 30
No, I want to continue to use the U.S.-centric method = 13
I couldn't care less = 0 Although several people objected to the bias of the poll wording. |
| | Registered: January 1, 2009 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,087 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting surfeur51: Quote:
...Anyway, I have always considered this as a problem, even if some other users consider I give too much importance to this "tiny" problem.
... Sorry, if my wording wasn't clear.  Hope I can write what I wanted to say a bit better: Accented names are a small (how you call it: "tiny") part of the linking problem. So with our "gigantic" problem we have with the currect linking system, even a small part can get very big for it's own. (Does someone understand what I want to say? Still looks not very good verbalized. ) Thanks, Formerly known as ..., for the numbers. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 17,334 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting surfeur51:
Quote:
I'll open in the next days common name threads for actors who are in my collection, where the CLT results are suspect, as it was done (not by me) in the past for Andre (André) Maranne. I hope this action will help the consistency of the database, even if the price is spelling mistakes in actors' common names.
How about including a list of the titles you're looking to confirm in each of them, as has become the standard for these common name-finding threads? Maybe have a look at ninehours' Andre/André Maranne-thread you just referred to for a typical set-up... I agree... it would make it much easier to try to help. | | | | Pete |
| | Registered: March 15, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 5,459 |
| | Posted: | | | | What do we do in cases where the name is written more than once in the credits?
I've just done one film where the composer is initially credited as JEROME COULLET however later on his name is repeated as Jérôme COULLET. Which one do I use for the credit? | | | | Last edited: by northbloke |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Again, some more and STILL and forever. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting northbloke: Quote:
What do we do in cases where the name is written more than once in the credits? Yeah, we need some kind of consensus on that, too. It isn't unique for accents either: for instance in 'Dogma', the make-up effects artist is credited twice for doing the same job: first without his middle initial in the opening credits, and then with his middle initial in the end credits... Personally, for cast I go with the complete, "standard" cast list from the end credits (assuming there is one of those, of course). And for crew I go by "first-come, first-served", so if the same crew credit is shown both in the opening and the closing credits, then I use the first one. |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting northbloke:
Quote:
What do we do in cases where the name is written more than once in the credits?
Yeah, we need some kind of consensus on that, too. It isn't unique for accents either: for instance in 'Dogma', the make-up effects artist is credited twice for doing the same job: first without his middle initial in the opening credits, and then with his middle initial in the end credits...
Personally, for cast I go with the complete, "standard" cast list from the end credits (assuming there is one of those, of course). And for crew I go by "first-come, first-served", so if the same crew credit is shown both in the opening and the closing credits, then I use the first one.  | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Personally, for cast I go with the complete, "standard" cast list from the end credits (assuming there is one of those, of course). And for crew I go by "first-come, first-served", so if the same crew credit is shown both in the opening and the closing credits, then I use the first one. This is how I do it as well, but it would be nice if the rules spelled it out. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | I think they do, Martian at least as regards to Cast, using "standard" crediting as defined by the rules the name from the end credits and exactly as shown. Any other entry is invalid, as to the crew while it should perhaps be spelled out as well, i think the same rule would apply. Why would we ant to do it two different ways for essentially the same purpose, it doesn't make sense to me. For example and it wouldn't cause me any grief, let us suppose that we see Francois Truffaut Director in the beginning credits and François Truffaut as Sound Editor I would list both entries exactly as I see them,THAT is consistent with the rules. I would probably link them myself or thru the CLT, maybe, but I would list both names precisely as I see them, why should we argue the point or lose any sleepover it. The data is listed per the rules and I can create the link either locally for myself or use the CLT perhaps for the community.<shrugs> It doesn't seem to difficult tome, nor does it seem to merit discussion. I can catch both the credited data AND the cultural data in one shot as I choose.<shrugs> | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video | | | | Last edited: by Winston Smith |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | I am not sure what you are talking about here. If we have the same person listed with one credit in the opening credits, and a different one in the end credits, of course we would enter them both 'as credited'. That, however, isn't what T!M was talking about. T!M is talking about the same crew credit being shown in both the opening and the closing credits...'John J. Doe - Art Director' in the opening credits, and 'John Doe - Art Director' in the end credits. I have seen this happen and, while I do it the same way T!M does, the rules do not tell us it has to be done that way. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Posts: 21,610 |
| | Posted: | | | | As I said Martian, I think they do,in cast data, why would you do it one way for cast using the end credits and a different wya for crew,I have seen the same thing and I go with the end credits everytime that is consistent between cast and crew handling. not handling one one way and the other another way just because you parse it out topermit you to do so. if the end ccredit for Art dir. is different from the same credit in the opening then the Rule says to use the end credits , base upon your parsing,should ken add this to the rules,certainly, that way all the cast and crew data is handled in the same manner.And we don't have somepeople parsing the Rule to impose their will on the database while another set of users is simply following consistency in the rules. If this comes across as argumentative...maybe,slightly.It strikes me as, similar to some guy rying to skate a murder charge which he committed with a BB gun because he parsed the law and believes that it says nothing about an air-powered gun being used in the commission of the felony. | | | ASSUME NOTHING!!!!!!
CBE, MBE, MoA and proud of it.
Outta here
Billy Video |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 13,202 |
| | Posted: | | | | Why must you always stick a jab at people's motives into your posts? For the record, whether you want to believe it or not, I am not trying to impose my will on the database, I am simply following what the rules tell me to do.
In the case of crew, they tell me to...
"Group names of crew members together within each role available and list in exactly the same order credited."
...in order to follow that rule, I have to list each name as I see it. If I don't, they are no longer 'in exactly the same order credited'...especially if the end credit is mixed in with other credits. I am sorry that you don't like it, but that is how the rule is written and there is no parsing required. | | | No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar |
| | Registered: May 29, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 3,475 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting TheMadMartian: Quote:
In the case of crew, they tell me to...
"Group names of crew members together within each role available and list in exactly the same order credited."
...in order to follow that rule, I have to list each name as I see it. If I don't, they are no longer 'in exactly the same order credited'...especially if the end credit is mixed in with other credits. This is how it should be done per the rules. If we are doing it any other way then we are violating them. One can not argue that the rules should be followed in one area and not another. Either they are to be followed or not. Since the owner of the program has set the rules and expects them to be followed then that is what must be done for the online database. If the rules can not be followed, for any reason, then they must be updated or changed. |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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