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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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More abuse of group dividers: song writing credits? |
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| Author |
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  | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm sure we've discussed this before, but both this forum's own search and Google fail to find it for me, so let's go again: do we use group divider to indicate the name of the song the "song writer" is credited for?
I sure hope not. It really seems this is something that belongs in the custom role field, something like "Song Name" Written By. That's how we do it for all other fields as well: for each crew credit, we have the option of recording the actual on-screen job title in the custom role field. If a film is based on a book, we don't use a group divider to put "Book Name" right before the person's OMB credit, do we? So why should we do the exact same thing here, then? "Song Name" Written By is the person's custom role for what we track as "song writer" in the online database, just like Based on the Novel "Book Name" By is the custom role for what we track as an "original material by" credit in the online database. Neither is a group that warrants the use of a group divider. |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Well I'm in favour for the use of dividers in the music crew section. I've done a lot of contributions with the song titles in the dividers to separate the song writer teams from each other and from the main composer(s). There is no such rule that prohibits the use of dividers in the music section of the crew chart. Why use dividers in the art and sound sections but not in the other sections? The song writers that wrote the songs for the film aren't part of the main crew. Just like some Visual Effects and post production sound crew that we separate with dividers.
The songs written for the film are written by separate teams/writers. Moreover the use of dividers reflect the actual credits better, it orders the song credits logically and it looks well-organized.
"Song Name" Written By isn't an option because that's not the way how the song writers are credited in contrast with the OMB credit: many OMB credits are credited as Based on the Novel "Book Name" By. Song writers are always (99%) credited as follows:
"Song Name"
Written by Person A, Person B etc.
"Song Name"
Written by Person C, Person D etc. | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Registered: May 8, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 1,945 |
| | Posted: | | | | I have no opinion on this, I am fine either way  Donnie | | | | www.tvmaze.com |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Why use dividers in the art and sound sections but not in the other sections? Because they're entirely different. We use those for the company names these people are listed under. This is nothing like that. Again: if I can't use a divider to list the title of the book of which we credit it's writer, then why would I use a divider to list the title of a song of which we credit it's writer? If one is allowed, the other must be, too. But it's not: the book title, or the song title, isn't the indication of a "group" or "crew team". It's part of the custom role name - nothing more. |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Why use dividers in the art and sound sections but not in the other sections?
Because they're entirely different. We use those for the company names these people are listed under. This is nothing like that.
Again: if I can't use a divider to list the title of the book of which we credit it's writer, then why would I use a divider to list the title of a song of which we credit it's writer? If one is allowed, the other must be, too. But it's not: the book title, or the song title, isn't the indication of a "group" or "crew team". It's part of the custom role name - nothing more. That's where we disagree. I do believe it's an indication for a crew team and/or a group. I think it could be used in rare cases in the Writing crew section as well (whether I would add dividers in the writing section is something else, but I can't vote against it). I don't see anything in the rules that forbids the use of dividers in other sections than the Art and Sound crew sections. And again, the OMB credits aren't credited the same way as the song writer credits. | | | | Cor |
| | Registered: June 12, 2007 | Reputation:  |  Posts: 2,665 |
| | Posted: | | | | I don't see the Rules allowing this and would vote against it without hesitation. | | | | Bad movie? You're soaking in it! |
| | Registered: May 26, 2007 | Reputation:  | | Posts: 2,879 |
| | Posted: | | | | I've done the same as Corne. What did it for me is that I was doing the credits for a film, I think it was The Fabulous Dorseys, and the song writing credits were presented in such a fashion as to immediately make me think of dividers.
Song A
Writer A
Writer B
Song B
Writer C
Writer D
Each song name was a heading in the credits, followed by its writers. The use of the dividers certainly made more sense than just listing a long column of Song Writers. It gives context to the credit.
I brought it up in the Rules forum as a possible addition to the rules, as something we could do at any time rather than just times at which it is presented like above, but didn't get a response from anyone other than the Martian. | | | If more of us valued food and cheer and song above hoarded gold, it would be a merrier world.
-- Thorin Oakenshield |
| | Registered: May 20, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,934 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tweeter: Quote:
I don't see the Rules allowing this and would vote against it without hesitation. I don't see the rules not allowing this. And think it should be allowed, unless clarified the other way. |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting tweeter: Quote:
I don't see the Rules allowing this and would vote against it without hesitation. Could you point out where in the rules it isn't allowed? | | | | Cor |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 4,245 |
| | Posted: | | | | I'm in the middle of this.
On one hand the data regarding what song was written is important and since the custom roles can't be contributed the Song Writer credit is kind of vague as to what song they wrote,
On the other hand I can see where this really isn't a divider at all and more of a role.
If I saw a contribution with this update I would vote neutral. |
| | T!M | | Profiling since Dec. 2000 |
| Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 8,736 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Corne: Quote:
Could you point out where in the rules it isn't allowed? Because a book title, a song title, or whatever's next, isn't the indication of a "group" or "crew team". It's part of the custom role name - nothing more. Like I said: what's next? Are we going to put a "Robert De Niro" credit right before the "Robert De Niro's Make-up By" credit? That is, IMHO, just about the same thing. Yes, it gives more data than the generic "make-up artist" we store in the database. But that doesn't mean it's a group divider: neither that make-up artist, nor the writer of a book upon a film was based, nor the writer of an original song, are "crew teams" or "groups". Instead, it's just the detailed "role" these people had. So where the on-screen credits do offer specific information like the name of the book the film was based on, the name of the original song, or that the credit pertains to Mr. De Niro's make-up only, it's still all just part of the (custom) role name field - nothing more. There's a big difference between shoehorning additional role information into a divider like that and the proper, valid use of crew dividers in the crew section, like you would for a visual effects header like this: Industrial Light & Magic Some Person - Visual Effects Supervisor Some Person - Visual Effects Designer Some Person - Digital Effects Supervisor Now that's a real group, that's a real "crew team". Listing a song title in a divider is something else entirely. | | | | Last edited: by T!M |
| | Registered: March 13, 2007 | | Reputation: |  Posts: 3,197 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting Danae Cassandra: Quote:
I've done the same as Corne. What did it for me is that I was doing the credits for a film, I think it was The Fabulous Dorseys, and the song writing credits were presented in such a fashion as to immediately make me think of dividers.
Song A
Writer A
Writer B
Song B
Writer C
Writer D
Each song name was a heading in the credits, followed by its writers. The use of the dividers certainly made more sense than just listing a long column of Song Writers. It gives context to the credit.
So what do you do if writer B and D happens to be the same person? Do you credit them twice? | | | | First registered: February 15, 2002 |
| | Registered: March 14, 2007 | | Posts: 868 |
| | Posted: | | | | I wouldn't use dividers.
Recently i did, for example
• Avatar (8712626044598) : James Horner - I See You (Theme From Avatar): Music by
• I Thnink I Love My Wife (8712626036708 : Chris Rock - F The Cracker: Written by
• Coffy (disc-ID 0D7D-2D73-288B-BACE) : Roy Ayers - "Coffy Baby": Music by
Of course i match the credits as closely as possible
Paul | | | | Last edited: by paulb_99 |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting T!M: Quote:
Quoting Corne:
Quote:
Could you point out where in the rules it isn't allowed?
Because a book title, a song title, or whatever's next, isn't the indication of a "group" or "crew team". It's part of the custom role name - nothing more.
Like I said: what's next? Are we going to put a "Robert De Niro" credit right before the "Robert De Niro's Make-up By" credit? That is, IMHO, just about the same thing. Yes, it gives more data than the generic "make-up artist" we store in the database. But that doesn't mean it's a group divider: neither that make-up artist, nor the writer of a book upon a film was based, nor the writer of an original song, are "crew teams" or "groups". Instead, it's just the detailed "role" these people had. So where the on-screen credits do offer specific information like the name of the book the film was based on, the name of the original song, or that the credit pertains to Mr. De Niro's make-up only, it's still all just part of the (custom) role name field - nothing more.
There's a big difference between shoehorning additional role information into a divider like that and the proper, valid use of crew dividers in the crew section, like you would for a visual effects header like this:
Industrial Light & Magic
Some Person - Visual Effects Supervisor
Some Person - Visual Effects Designer
Some Person - Digital Effects Supervisor
Now that's a real group, that's a real "crew team". Listing a song title in a divider is something else entirely. The song title isn't part of the role of course. The role is song writer. By that reasoning the film title is part of the filmmaker's role also. There's a huge difference between OMB credits. The song titles are put in the film credits as headers. What's the definition of a group? Here are some definitions from dictionaries: "any collection or assemblage of persons or things" / "a number of persons or things ranged or considered together as being related in some way" Source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/group"a number of people or things that are put together or considered as a unit" Source: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/dictionary/british/group_1These definitions all apply for the credits for the songs. Moreover I think the wording of the question of this poll is highly subjective and directive by using the word "abuse". | | | | Cor | | | | Last edited: by Corne |
| | Corne | | Registered: Nov. 1, 2000 |
| Registered: April 5, 2007 | | Posts: 1,059 |
| | Posted: | | | | Quoting KinoNiki: Quote:
Quoting Danae Cassandra:
Quote:
I've done the same as Corne. What did it for me is that I was doing the credits for a film, I think it was The Fabulous Dorseys, and the song writing credits were presented in such a fashion as to immediately make me think of dividers.
Song A
Writer A
Writer B
Song B
Writer C
Writer D
Each song name was a heading in the credits, followed by its writers. The use of the dividers certainly made more sense than just listing a long column of Song Writers. It gives context to the credit.
So what do you do if writer B and D happens to be the same person? Do you credit them twice? Yes, he's credited twice. That's even more reason to add dividers. Adding him twice without the dividers puts him/her out of context. We do the same with other credits, for instance if someone is credited as Sound Supervisor and as Sound Designer. Some actors are credited more than once etc. | | | | Cor |
| | Registered: June 21, 2007 | | Reputation: | | Posts: 2,621 |
| | Posted: | | | | I had never even thought about this for a second and don't thinkl the current dividers should be used for it, but I love the idea and would like to see song dividers down the road. It would make auditing easier IMO as so many songs get credit where they shouldn't, and skimming over the profile is so much quicker and easier than the film credits (of course when an error is seen, you'll have to check it against film credits, but it's easier to get started). |
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Invelos Forums->DVD Profiler: Contribution Discussion |
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