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Original title for "Quest for fire": "La guerre du feu" or empty?
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorpmasl
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Registered: March 25, 2007
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I'm having this discussion with a fellow contributor, and we cannot seem to convince each other. The profile for "Quest for fire", as it stands now, has "La guerre du feu" as the original title. Another user is uploading a collection of valid changes, but is deleting the original title, and i'm disagreeing with that.
In my point of view, it is a French/Canadian film, shot in Canada, Scotland, Iceland, and Kenya. The original title is "La guerre du feu" and the international title (and this realease too) is "Quest for fire".
In the rules there is this:
The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title.

http://www.allmovie.com/work/39857

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quest_for_Fire_%28film%29

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Guerra_do_Fogo

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082484/
 Last edited: by pmasl
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorwidescreenforever
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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I'm the fellow' .., my argument is the rules stipulate:
For non-English titles, use capitalization rules common to the language of the title. “Tout va bien” is correctly capitalized. “Tout Va Bien” is not.
If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language).

Plus the film itself released thru 20th Century Fox, has  English Only for main title, box art, and credit box as well as there is no mention anywhere of the french title- '"La guerre du feu"" .
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 Last edited: by widescreenforever
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Registered: March 13, 2007
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Quoting widescreenforever:
Quote:
I'm the fellow' .., my argument is the rules stipulate:
For non-English titles, use capitalization rules common to the language of the title. “Tout va bien” is correctly capitalized. “Tout Va Bien” is not.
If the title appears in multiple languages, use the title that matches the language of the locality and do not include an alternate title ( for instance in another language).

Plus the film itself released thru 20th Century Fox, has  English Only for main title, box art, and credit box as well as there is no mention anywhere of the french title- '"La guerre du feu"" .


What you've quoted (and bolded) is referring to the "Title" field, not the "Original Title" field.

The "Original Title" is "La guerre du feu".
Hal
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting pmasl:
Quote:
I'm having this discussion with a fellow contributor, and we cannot seem to convince each other. The profile for "Quest for fire", as it stands now, has "La guerre du feu" as the original title. Another user is uploading a collection of valid changes, but is deleting the original title, and i'm disagreeing with that.
In my point of view, it is a French/Canadian film, shot in Canada, Scotland, Iceland, and Kenya. The original title is "La guerre du feu" and the international title (and this realease too) is "Quest for fire".
In the rules there is this:
The Original Title field serves two general purposes, but in both cases allows for the tracking of the original feature title.

The rule also says, "Use the title from the film's credits."  If 'La guerre du feu' is not the title in the film's credits, it can't be used.
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The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar Contributorsurfeur51
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:

The rule also says, "Use the title from the film's credits."  If 'La guerre du feu' is not the title in the film's credits, it can't be used.


In my edition (UPC 3 384442 031929), I have "La guerre du feu" on the front cover and in the credits.

Title may vary from one edition to another (specially when title is translated from original title to other languages), but original title should be unique.  So, if "La guerre du feu" is validated by the rules with my edition, it should be validated for all editions. If someone found "Quest of Fire" in credits, that would mean the rule could not be applied.
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DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorAce_of_Sevens
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Agreed with surfeur here. Original title is from the title of the original release & should be used even if the title card is changed for whatever reason. (There's precedent for this. See Star Wars.)
DVD Profiler Unlimited RegistrantStar ContributorJimmy S
Registered: March 15, 2007
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:

The rule also says, "Use the title from the film's credits."  If 'La guerre du feu' is not the title in the film's credits, it can't be used.

So explain me why we enter the italian title for the italian movie in the original title field even if the title on the credit is in english? Sorry but Hal, Surfeur and Ace are right on this.

DVD Title  : Quest for Fire
Original Title : La guerre du feu
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
The rule also says, "Use the title from the film's credits."  If 'La guerre du feu' is not the title in the film's credits, it can't be used.


I believe that for "Foreign Films", we are directed differently:

Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
Foreign Films: The Original Title field will contain the original title for the main feature in the country of origin.


This section says nothing about the original title having to be in the film's credits, and honestly, such a restriction makes absolutely no sense.

I believe that if you'll check the Clint Eastwood spaghetti westerns, e.g. "The Good the Bad and the Ugly", they also include the Italian original title, yet the Italian title does not appear in the film credits.

I believe "Quest for Fire" would be considered a "foreign film" outside of France/French Canadian.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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I am just pointing out what the rule says.  Nothing in the two sub-sections tells us to ignore the main rule...which says we are to use the title from the film's credits.  The fact that people are doing it differently doesn't change what the rule says.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Quoting TheMadMartian:
Quote:
I am just pointing out what the rule says.  Nothing in the two sub-sections tells us to ignore the main rule...which says we are to use the title from the film's credits.  The fact that people are doing it differently doesn't change what the rule says.


Well the way I read it, the "Foreign Film" bullet is an exception to the "main" rule, not a clarification of it.  Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense, since it would be a direct contradiction of the "main" rule in many cases.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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I only see them as exceptions when the word 'exception' is used.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
 Last edited: by TheMadMartian
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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There are other examples in the Rules where bullets are exceptions even though they are not labeled as exceptions.  See Regions for instance.

In the case at hand the bullet does not make sense unless you interpret it to be an exception.
Hal
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
There are other examples in the Rules where bullets are exceptions even though they are not labeled as exceptions.  See Regions for instance.

I don't see any of those as exceptions because we are told that we can ignore the region on the cover if we can prove it is wrong.  There is no such caveat in this rule.

Quote:
In the case at hand the bullet does not make sense unless you interpret it to be an exception.

Never said it made sense, only how I read it.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar Contributorhal9g
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Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
List the Region(s) shown on the cover, unless you can verify there is a discrepancy between that and the region coding on the disc.

    * List DVDs encoded for at least Regions 1-6 as "All." Regions 7-8 are ignored for the purposes of DVD Profiler.


The first rule says to list the "Region(s) shown on the cover".  That would be the "main" rule using your interpretation and it cannot be overruled by anything following that unless the word "Exceptions" is included.  That's what you've said.

If I have a DVD which has Regions 1 through 8 listed on the cover, AND, I verify that it is in fact Region 1 through 8 using DVDInfoPro, then according to you I must enter Regions 1 through 8.

However, the bullet tells me to enter "All" instead of entering 1 through 8.

BTW, I am well aware of the fact the the software will convert Regions 1 trough 8 automatically to "All", but that is not relevant to the debate.

At any rate, sometimes, you have to read things in the context of the entire Rule to be able to understand what it actually says.  Applying arbitrary parameters such as "unless it says exception, it is not an exception" simply does not work.
Hal
 Last edited: by hal9g
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DVD Profiler Desktop and Mobile RegistrantStar ContributorTheMadMartian
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Quoting hal9g:
Quote:
Quoting the Rules:
Quote:
List the Region(s) shown on the cover, unless you can verify there is a discrepancy between that and the region coding on the disc.

    * List DVDs encoded for at least Regions 1-6 as "All." Regions 7-8 are ignored for the purposes of DVD Profiler.


The first rule says to list the "Region(s) shown on the cover".  That would be the "main" rule using your interpretation and it cannot be overruled by anything following that unless the word "Exceptions" is included.  That's what you've said.

One small problem with your your understanding of what I said...this rule uses the word 'unless'.  The exception is built into the main rule so there is no need to use the word 'exception'. For the title rule to be the same, it would have to say, "Use the title from the film's credits, unless you can verify it is not the original title."

Quote:
If I have a DVD which has Regions 1 through 8 listed on the cover, AND, I verify that it is in fact Region 1 through 8 using DVDInfoPro, then according to you I must enter Regions 1 through 8.

However, the bullet tells me to enter "All" instead of entering 1 through 8.

BTW, I am well aware of the fact the the software will convert Regions 1 trough 8 automatically to "All", but that is not relevant to the debate.

I am sorry, but what?  Based on your first paragraph, this makes no sense.   

Quote:
At any rate, sometimes, you have to read things in the context of the entire Rule to be able to understand what it actually says.  Applying arbitrary parameters such as "unless it says exception, it is not an exception" simply does not work.

I did not write the rule so my understanding is based on what the rule actually says, and the rule says to take the original title from the film's credits.  The bullets, no matter how you try to claim they do, do not tell you to do anything else.  That may be how you understand it, probably because it makes more sense that way, but that isn't what it says.
No dictator, no invader can hold an imprisoned population by force of arms forever.
There is no greater power in the universe than the need for freedom.
Against this power, governments and tyrants and armies cannot stand.
The Centauri learned this lesson once.
We will teach it to them again.
Though it take a thousand years, we will be free.
- Citizen G'Kar
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